(Jun 8, 2020, 12:31 AM)Markus Wrote: [ -> ] (Jun 7, 2020, 07:02 AM)Nev Wrote: [ -> ]-snip-
So, who do you think is at fault for George Floyd's murder? Just so I can get a quick TL;DR.
George Floyd
All in all, the only one responsable for every action that lead to him being in that situation, is George Floyd.
George Floyd decided to take Fentanyl
George Floyd decided to attempt to commit a crime
George Floyd decided to resist police multiple times throughout his detainment, which put him into a confrontation with police.
In the end, George Floyd, caused George Floyd to die, the fact he committed a crime, had taken Fentanyl, had coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease, then becoming involved in a police arrest with an ill trained officer, seems to have been the perfect storm to cause him to die from cardiopulmonary arrest.
A secondary answer would also be: No one "murdered" George Floyd, murder requires intent to kill, what occured would be more in the category of, involuntary manslaughter at most.
(Involuntary manslaughter is the killing of another person without the intent to kill, but where the person's death occurs as a result of the negligent or reckless actions of the defendant)
(Jun 7, 2020, 10:57 PM)Klinex Wrote: [ -> ] (Jun 7, 2020, 03:00 PM)Tails Wrote: [ -> ] (Jun 6, 2020, 04:41 PM)Klinex Wrote: [ -> ]how you look rn
Imagine how you must look then thinking that the 6 bad cops in america are a more important issue than the 1 million Muslims in Chinese internment camps, or the millions of modern day slaves, or the millions of homeless people. Get a fucking grip.
imagine how you look thinking this is only about 6 bad cops
Might as well be considering how rare it is on the scale of the entirety of the US
(Jun 8, 2020, 03:46 AM)BlackDog Wrote: [ -> ] (Jun 8, 2020, 12:31 AM)Markus Wrote: [ -> ] (Jun 7, 2020, 07:02 AM)Nev Wrote: [ -> ]-snip-
So, who do you think is at fault for George Floyd's murder? Just so I can get a quick TL;DR.
George Floyd
All in all, the only one responsable for every action that lead to him being in that situation, is George Floyd.
George Floyd decided to take Fentanyl
George Floyd decided to attempt to commit a crime
George Floyd decided to resist police multiple times throughout his detainment, which put him into a confrontation with police.
In the end, George Floyd, caused George Floyd to die, the fact he committed a crime, had taken Fentanyl, had coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease, then becoming involved in a police arrest with an ill trained officer, seems to have been the perfect storm to cause him to die from cardiopulmonary arrest.
A secondary answer would also be: No one "murdered" George Floyd, murder requires intent to kill, what occured would be more in the category of, involuntary manslaughter at most.
(Involuntary manslaughter is the killing of another person without the intent to kill, but where the person's death occurs as a result of the negligent or reckless actions of the defendant)
Most of that is true but still, its pretty clear Chauvin did murder him (at the very least, in the third degree which is comparable to involuntary manslaughter in Minnesota if im not mistaken)
even if he didn't directly die of asphyxiation, i dont think having a knee on your neck for almost 9 minutes is good for your health and it's clear that chauvin didn't care about floyd's wellbeing.
(Jun 8, 2020, 07:47 PM)Ocelotus Wrote: [ -> ]even if he didn't directly die of asphyxiation, i dont think having a knee on your neck for almost 9 minutes is good for your health and it's clear that chauvin didn't care about floyd's wellbeing.
Derek Chauvin was an officer with a pretty sizeable record of poor conduct to begin with.
https://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/www/gro...224777.pdf
He was the training officer for the rookie officers that were also blamed for the incident, who between them had a week on the job.
(Jun 8, 2020, 07:47 PM)Ocelotus Wrote: [ -> ]even if he didn't directly die of asphyxiation, i dont think having a knee on your neck for almost 9 minutes is good for your health and it's clear that chauvin didn't care about floyd's wellbeing.
True or not, it does not make it murder.
Manslaughter is the offence, but they are making the same mistake as they did with Daniel Shaver's shooter, Overcharging.
Rather than attempting to charge the officer with the correct charge, Manslaughter in both cases, they are going for second degree murder due to the media and social pressure, which is wrong.
Second degree requires intent to kill, but not be premeditated, they are not going to be able to prove he wanted to kill Floyd on purpose, as his cause of death was not asphyxiation, which nulls out the officer directly killing him.
What's going to happen, is the officer is going to be overcharged, the charges will be overturned by a grand jury as they cannot prove the intent was to kill, and the murder charge will be dropped, which means you cannot go back and retroactively go after him for Manslaughter, the charge that should have been the focus from the start, due to double jeopardy laws. (A person cannot be tried twice for the same crime based on the same conduct.)
The officer will then no doubt be released, and an uproar will take place, more riots, and they will all blame the horrible justice system and how racist it is.
All while ignoring the fact that had the prosecution not be influenced by emotion and public pressure, and had they just done their job, the officer would have been properly charged in the first place, and that him not being convicted, is entirely their own fault.
(Jun 8, 2020, 12:31 AM)Markus Wrote: [ -> ] (Jun 7, 2020, 07:02 AM)Nev Wrote: [ -> ]-snip-
So, who do you think is at fault for George Floyd's murder? Just so I can get a quick TL;DR.
The store clerk who called the cops for a counterfeit $20, instead of putting it into the till for the feds to deal with later, as is fairly normal for businesses that come into contact with counterfeit currency. The cops for approaching it like they did over an alleged $20 counterfeit bill, my own opinion is that it was worth maybe a summons in the form of a ticket, but it may have differed from their department policy. George Floyd for resisting custody - may or may not have known the money he was using was counterfeit. Derek Chauvin for exercising poor judgment and arrest procedure on top of a significant lack of awareness, especially in regards to the suspect in his custody, resulting in a person's death. Hence his criminal charges.
A good post I saw. Little longer read but a good one.
Defund the Police. Let's talk about it. But don't stop reading until its over because you might be surprised. Lets get 2 things out of the way. 1st, the phrase "Defund the Police" is the stupidest proposal ever. 2nd, I actually support the concept at its roots.
Defund means to prevent from receive funding or to withdraw funds from. And I believe the term Defund the Police is intentionally inflammatory, divisive, and charged. It's meant to inspire confidence in extreme outliers that the officers will be fired left and right to open a new utopia. It's meant to bring fear to officers and departments that they will be rooted out and terminated. But that's not what it means, and its own title will hinder it's progress.
Someone who has pull within this movement should immediately change the title to "Stop Overburdening the Police." Because truly, that's what they mean.
When I started in 2004, if I met a person in crisis, a person with suicidal ideations, a person with a mental illness (diagnosed or not), I could at my discretion or their request drive them to the state mental hospital in downtown Phoenix. I would pull up to the front door and drop them off. The problem was dealt with by trained social service employees and medical clinicians. Transients could be directed to one of several shelters to receive food, a bed, supplies, or aid. But resources slowly, and quietly began getting shut down. It actually took me almost a year to realize that the state mental hospital didn't exist any more. Not only could it no longer be used as a resource for me....but the occupants that were housed there were released and trickled out on to the streets.
Instead of defunding the police. Stop overburdening them.
Support crisis intervention teams from your local hospital that are available 24 hours a day to respond out to calls for help. Understand that some programs like that currently exist. Most are underfunded, available intermittently, and almost all require officers to be dispatched with them. If there are no police, they will not go either. Police Officers receive (an anecdotal guess) 2 to 8 hours of crisis training per year, unless an individual officer elects or is directed to attend a 1 week class. Still no where near what a social worker does. Don't make police officers responsible for dealing with your community's mentally ill.
Support homeless shelters, low income housing, multi family housing units, and other resources in your community. High housing costs, population density, unemployment, and the aforementioned mental health issues are causing an increase in homelessness and transients. Officers receive (an anecdotal guess) 0 hours per year training specifically on homeless issues. Some officers may seek out training or resources personally, as a matter of interested. Don't make police officers responsible for dealing with your community's homeless population.
Support after school programs for kids, child care facilities, sports programs, park programs, and tutoring centers. Children raised in single parent households are usually at home by themselves after school.N Idle hands are the devil's playground. Without positive adult role models, positive activities, positive social interaction, and adult supervision, kids will engage in petty crimes, try smoking or drug use, flock to peers with strong (but sometimes unhealthy) personalities. Kids don't need to be introduced to the criminal justice system. They need to be raised responsibly and integrated in to society. Don't make police officers responsible for dealing with unsupervised kids in the community.
Support self service centers at your court house. Custody exchanges, custody disputes, property disputes, landlord tenant issues, etc are not police issues. Attorneys go to school for 6 years or so. Officer get (on average) a 16 week academy and a 16 week field training program. Most of it focused on criminal law. Stop introducing people in to the criminal justice system when they need civil law assistance. Don't make officers responsible for applying criminal law to civil issues or for providing civil law advise to people.
Support increased funding and training for Emergency Call Centers. 911 centers are the first line of discretion in an agency. Many centers receive a call for any request from a citizen and enter a call for service without question. Once that call is entered, an officer must respond. First off, call centers across the country are severely under funded, understaffed, overworked, and burned out. They are almost working on autopilot, for up to 16 hours per shift, days in a row. Demand higher pay for dispatchers, attract better candidates, hire qualified applicants, train them more, and fully staff the centers. Provide cal takers with basic civil and criminal law classes to allow them to filter out non police issues and direct citizens to the right service. In most locations, if you cal 911 (for other than a clear medical emergency) you will get the police. But the police are not always whats needed. Don't use the police as a catch all for any problem you have.
Support evaluating and repealing stupid criminal statutes. Why was Eric Garner contacted in the first place? For selling Loosies (Loose, singe cigarettes). Why is that even illegal? America loves legislating behavior in to crimes. And by crime, I mean something that could put a person in a jail, even for a day. Not picking up dog poop should no be a crime. Driving without a license should not be a crime. Walking in the street next to a sidewalk should not be a crime. Receiving a product to sell in a package and selling the contents individually should not be a crime. There are civil ways of dealing with issues. Zoning, Code Enforcement, Health Department, etc, can issue warning, fines, liens, etc. Don't use the police to incarcerate people for low level offenses that shouldn't be unlawful anyway.
Finally, stop using your police department as a one stop shop for all your life's problems.
Don't call the police because someone is fishing in your HOA pond.
Don't call the police because the ducks behind your house are too loud.
Don't call the police because your 7 and 9 year old are arguing over Pokemon cards.
Don't call the police because your 11 year old refuses to go to school.
Don't call the police because you found weed in your 14 year old's room.
Don't call the police because your ex is 15 minutes late bringing the kids back.
Don't call the police because someone shoplifted $2.49 earrings.
Don't call the police because your neighbor trimmed your tree over the property line.
Don't call the police because you saw a black male walking and you've never seen him in the neighborhood before.
Don't call the police because your neighbor has parked their car in the street for the last 3 weeks.
(FYI, every single one of these is a real call that I personally have responded to in my career).
In summary, Defund the Police? No. Don't Defund the Police. The Police are a necessary part of society that must exist to intervene in violent crimes, criminal investigations, traffic enforcement, etc. Stop Overburdening the Police. Stop relying on the police as your single point of contact with the government. Stop pretending like 36 weeks of training make a person an expert in criminal law, civil law, medical care, child care, adult care, social work, mental health, physician, counseling, accident reconstruction, and housing. Don't punish the police for being the dumping ground of every other agency, department, and administration that doesn't want to deal with something. Properly fund your entire government and your private social outreach organizations, Hold your tax exempt organizations responsible for their tax exempt status.
And in all seriousness, change the movement's title. Because there's some good concepts in there. But Defunding is going to turn off a lot of people before you can even explain.
(Jun 8, 2020, 11:58 PM)Venom Wrote: [ -> ]And in all seriousness, change the movement's title. Because there's some good concepts in there. But Defunding is going to turn off a lot of people before you can even explain.
Yeah, from what I've read a good bit of leaders of the movement intend it to mean that too. Even John Oliver's segment about it mentioned that. The title is just inflammatory. They're talking about shifting responsibility of things like that away from the police which is fine, but the way it's phrased makes it seem they all want to get rid of police.
(Jun 8, 2020, 11:58 PM)Venom Wrote: [ -> ]When I started in 2004, if I met a person in crisis, a person with suicidal ideations, a person with a mental illness (diagnosed or not), I could at my discretion or their request drive them to the state mental hospital in downtown Phoenix. I would pull up to the front door and drop them off. The problem was dealt with by trained social service employees and medical clinicians. Transients could be directed to one of several shelters to receive food, a bed, supplies, or aid. But resources slowly, and quietly began getting shut down. It actually took me almost a year to realize that the state mental hospital didn't exist any more. Not only could it no longer be used as a resource for me....but the occupants that were housed there were released and trickled out on to the streets.
Instead of defunding the police. Stop overburdening them.
Support crisis intervention teams from your local hospital that are available 24 hours a day to respond out to calls for help. Understand that some programs like that currently exist. Most are underfunded, available intermittently, and almost all require officers to be dispatched with them. If there are no police, they will not go either. Police Officers receive (an anecdotal guess) 2 to 8 hours of crisis training per year, unless an individual officer elects or is directed to attend a 1 week class. Still no where near what a social worker does. Don't make police officers responsible for dealing with your community's mentally ill.
Support homeless shelters, low income housing, multi family housing units, and other resources in your community. High housing costs, population density, unemployment, and the aforementioned mental health issues are causing an increase in homelessness and transients. Officers receive (an anecdotal guess) 0 hours per year training specifically on homeless issues. Some officers may seek out training or resources personally, as a matter of interested. Don't make police officers responsible for dealing with your community's homeless population.
This exactly.
I have only been working as a volunteer EMT for a number of months now, but I have learned a lot about the problems with police and EMS. One call I had was a homeless guy. Since there are very few if any shelters in my area, the homeless walk the streets at night. One guy often walks on a main road into traffic to force the police to come. The cops arrive, call us, and we transport him to the local hospital. He gets a free meal and leaves and starts wandering the streets to repeat the cycle.
Additionally, in terms of overburdening the police, medical calls in small towns are usually answered first by police. In the towns I serve, the cops all carry medical bags with basic medical equipment, defib, and an O2 tank I believe. In small towns this is alright. The cops are usually doing nothing but traffic stops anyways so they just hang around and talk while we work. When we need them, they help with lifting and moving heavier patients. However, in larger towns and cities, this is not possible. The cops have their jobs to do and they can't be the ones responding to medical calls. There are obviously times when calls can get dangerous, but we can pack up and leave and call the cops if needed.
People do not understand when to call 911 and when not to. There was never a class teaching about it. Obviously, you don't want to discourage people from calling 911 when it is necessary, but a class would help.
I understand the push to have social workers (or full-time crisis intervention teams) respond to people in crisis, but there is the obvious danger that some people in crisis are violent. There are suicides-by-cop and I wouldn't be surprised if some extremely desperate people were violent towards the social workers to force the cops to come. Luckily, this is usually the exception to the rule and most people in crisis just need help. There are very few resources available normally and cops are not trained to handle them. It's definitely something to explore.
I can support the idea to improve the lives of Black People who are disadvantaged due to economic issues. I can't however support Black Lives Matter, the organisation established in 2013 - As its abundantly clear they are an anti-policing campaign. If they were a meaningful campaign, they'd at least spent the last 7 years writing up policy that can be discussed and potentially implemented. But they haven't.
Instead, they've been honouring and protesting the deaths of criminals and running smear campaigns. I've done very thorough investigations in the last 24 hours, backed by the last 7 years of me following policing in the U.S.( I wont deny my bias, I'm on the side of the police)
I've found multiple instances were BLM protested deaths, but never bothered to investigate them. Such as the death of a Black Mother, who had her son hostage and fired a shotgun at police after a 6 hour stand off.
They've also tried cutting funding from Police and Fire department training. Such was the case in Chicago a few years back, the City had pledged to put money into a new training grounds, which offered newer up to date facilities for both the Police Department and Fire Department.
I also spent a good few hours on blacklivesmatter.com. They offer absolutely nothing to the convocation that needs to be had.
So what do I think that needs to be done? Well I actually don't know. Its clear to me that black people are dying, because of crime. And this crime is caused by complex economic disparity, in communities not in race.
Where we find large amounts of crime in black populations, we find large amounts of crime in the whites and Hispanics population. Lets take a good example; Detroit.
From what I understand - Detroit wasn't always the violent mess it is today, however it became rampant with crime after the
automotive industry declined there? I would love to have any input from anyone that knows more about this.
From what I can deter this lead to a huge economic impacts which means that now 35% of people living in Detroit are below the poverty line.
So to anyone here who is n full support of either BLM, Defund the Police etc. I pose two questions, because I want to eliminate bias yet no one wants to talk. So I can't get anyone else's perspective.
Is this really a racial issue? Or is it an economic issue?
If its an economic issue, what do we do to resolve it?
(Jun 9, 2020, 03:34 PM)Andromeda Wrote: [ -> ]I can support the idea to improve the lives of Black People who are disadvantaged due to economic issues. I can't however support Black Lives Matter, the organisation established in 2013 - As its abundantly clear they are an anti-policing campaign. If they were a meaningful campaign, they'd at least spent the last 7 years writing up policy that can be discussed and potentially implemented. But they haven't.
Instead, they've been honouring and protesting the deaths of criminals and running smear campaigns. I've done very thorough investigations in the last 24 hours, backed by the last 7 years of me following policing in the U.S.( I wont deny my bias, I'm on the side of the police)
I've found multiple instances were BLM protested deaths, but never bothered to investigate them. Such as the death of a Black Mother, who had her son hostage and fired a shotgun at police after a 6 hour stand off.
They've also tried cutting funding from Police and Fire department training. Such was the case in Chicago a few years back, the City had pledged to put money into a new training grounds, which offered newer up to date facilities for both the Police Department and Fire Department.
I also spent a good few hours on blacklivesmatter.com. They offer absolutely nothing to the convocation that needs to be had.
So what do I think that needs to be done? Well I actually don't know. Its clear to me that black people are dying, because of crime. And this crime is caused by complex economic disparity, in communities not in race.
Where we find large amounts of crime in black populations, we find large amounts of crime in the whites and Hispanics population. Lets take a good example; Detroit.
From what I understand - Detroit wasn't always the violent mess it is today, however it became rampant with crime after the automotive industry declined there? I would love to have any input from anyone that knows more about this.
From what I can deter this lead to a huge economic impacts which means that now 35% of people living in Detroit are below the poverty line.
So to anyone here who is n full support of either BLM, Defund the Police etc. I pose two questions, because I want to eliminate bias yet no one wants to talk. So I can't get anyone else's perspective.
Is this really a racial issue? Or is it an economic issue?
If its an economic issue, what do we do to resolve it?
The reason no one wants to talk is because threads like these will lead to nothing other than people arguing with eachother anyway.
People in here, in the end, are not going to do anything or take any action. This all leads to nowhere.
Edit: Personally, the only point I can agree with is stopping the overburdening of police and the one about tax-exempt organizations such as The Church of Scientology.
(Jun 10, 2020, 05:57 PM)Markus Wrote: [ -> ] (Jun 9, 2020, 03:34 PM)Andromeda Wrote: [ -> ]I can support the idea to improve the lives of Black People who are disadvantaged due to economic issues. I can't however support Black Lives Matter, the organisation established in 2013 - As its abundantly clear they are an anti-policing campaign. If they were a meaningful campaign, they'd at least spent the last 7 years writing up policy that can be discussed and potentially implemented. But they haven't.
Instead, they've been honouring and protesting the deaths of criminals and running smear campaigns. I've done very thorough investigations in the last 24 hours, backed by the last 7 years of me following policing in the U.S.( I wont deny my bias, I'm on the side of the police)
I've found multiple instances were BLM protested deaths, but never bothered to investigate them. Such as the death of a Black Mother, who had her son hostage and fired a shotgun at police after a 6 hour stand off.
They've also tried cutting funding from Police and Fire department training. Such was the case in Chicago a few years back, the City had pledged to put money into a new training grounds, which offered newer up to date facilities for both the Police Department and Fire Department.
I also spent a good few hours on blacklivesmatter.com. They offer absolutely nothing to the convocation that needs to be had.
So what do I think that needs to be done? Well I actually don't know. Its clear to me that black people are dying, because of crime. And this crime is caused by complex economic disparity, in communities not in race.
Where we find large amounts of crime in black populations, we find large amounts of crime in the whites and Hispanics population. Lets take a good example; Detroit.
From what I understand - Detroit wasn't always the violent mess it is today, however it became rampant with crime after the automotive industry declined there? I would love to have any input from anyone that knows more about this.
From what I can deter this lead to a huge economic impacts which means that now 35% of people living in Detroit are below the poverty line.
So to anyone here who is n full support of either BLM, Defund the Police etc. I pose two questions, because I want to eliminate bias yet no one wants to talk. So I can't get anyone else's perspective.
Is this really a racial issue? Or is it an economic issue?
If its an economic issue, what do we do to resolve it?
The reason no one wants to talk is because threads like these will lead to nothing other than people arguing with eachother anyway.
People in here, in the end, are not going to do anything or take any action. This all leads to nowhere.
Edit: Personally, the only point I can agree with is stopping the overburdening of police and the one about tax-exempt organizations such as The Church of Scientology.
No one has been having the discussion though, just protest with no obvious ideas. They've had 7 years to make a goal list, yet nothing. What do they want from us, or the political leaders?