[Bambo]

As I said before, the issue is not an individual or a group, so it will not be productive to focus on them. What will be productive is how the issue arises. A gap in the rules? A grey area needing clarifaction? A gamemode bug?

The way to tackle that is not to argue back and forth in a thread about solutions. The way to tackle that is to make a suggestion, a bug report, shed light on the issue. 

We will fix it, if there is an issue that makes the server experience drop. We are working on a couple of fixes right now, but we need you, the community, to work with us here. 

Please do not argue and take this thread off-topic, as these will become back and forth arguments proved by previous warnings.

I understand the tension, I understand how annoying it can be, but arguing it doesn't solve it, making a suggestion or a bug report is the step to solve it.

Work with us, instead of working against each other. Please.

[Lewwings]

In my opinion:

1. Change map
2. Lax the rules in some areas
3. Reward those actively helping LL, retire those who aren’t 
4. Fix the SA team’s current situation

[Welker]

There's alot of discussion about rules being too tough but nothing really specific. 

Anyone wanna elaborate on particular rules they'd like see adjusted or removed?

[ForceGhost]

"FailRP" seems to be more a "I don't like what you're doing despite there not being a rule against it".

I think @BlackDog‍ could possibly shed more light on that.

[Markus]

"FailRP" seems to be more a "I don't like what you're doing despite there not being a rule against it".

I think @BlackDog‍ could possibly shed more light on that.

You could easily sum it up as doing something dumb as fuck that does not feel like you are doing it to play out a real scenario.
It's mostly just common sense.

[Markus]

@Bambo‍
While I don't know much about how this works, couldn't we look for investors without going from an Ltd. to an Inc., aka still keeping stocks in the company?

[Judge Rage]

@Bambo‍
While I don't know much about how this works, couldn't we look for investors without going from an Ltd. to an Inc., aka still keeping stocks in the company?

There's no inc in the UK, just Ltd and Plc. 

You can look for investors as an Ltd, just requires permission of those that already hold shares to also hold shares, so we wouldn't need to change from private to public limited. 

You would need the two shareholders (Enzyme and.. I want to say Faustie?) to give up a bit of their shares to free up space for an investor.

All in all though, I seriously doubt we'd be able to find investors, and even if we did that would mean shifting towards a community where the server is more of a business and actively trying to drain money out of us, instead of what it is right now, a community. If the intention is to become a genuine, for-profit business, then that needs to be clear and up front because that means turning away from the foundations of our community.

[MrMarsh]

Alright its time for me to finally throw in my 2 cents. Sorry for the long delay here but i have been a bit busy and had to change my response a little (as it was a tat too long...)

First of all I agree with the points @"Gungranny"‍ ‍ made:
We all care (else none of us would be here/partake in this discussion). That means 2 things:

1. We have enough ressources and means to recover from this - and we will (the question is how fast that will be)
   
2. We need to focus on how to use these ressources as efficiently as possible instead of utilising the current problems to back up old rivlarys or come up with scapegoat schemes..
   

A lot of the feedback has been very constructive and interesting. Though some has been utterly conterproductive. If we result to scapegoating or celebrating our leave and frustration the only change that this may bring us may be a change for the worse. As we contribute to this discussion we do so hoping that the time and toughts we invest in it will be a usefull investment afterall - so lets make it worth it.

Events
Furthermore events like the Idaho Gubernatorial Debate or Kimmy's Fishign Palooza alread sucesfully buffed the server population for several hours. Whilst rp events alone are not the main solution, they have shown that they can sucessfully contribute to solve the problem.
There is a sorta threshold-effect: The more people are on the server - the more will join. Unfortunatly that can also mean that we may have a time where 5 people are on, with another 15 waiting for the server to reach at least 20 people and another 10 wait for the 30 player mark. If all were to hop on everyone would be happy though since no one knows of the otthers or has a guarantee the server wills tay populated, the server stays empty instead.
So id like to encourage more passive rps and discourage that "we are doomed" mentality, since if it does anything at all, it turns into a selffullfilling prophecy. And NO we are most definatly not doomed.


Map Feedback (Rockford would be a needed compromise)

As you know i really do like the theme and layout of True North. I think it has a very good atmosphere and a sophisticated maplayout that offers a lot of potential. Though I realise that with the current playercount it may be a litle too large for now.

Id favor Rockford as its the best compromise between the elaborate map structure of TN and the compact design of evo. We did not really have any mayor population issues on Rockford and it is still large enough to accommodate a great variety of RPs that would be very difficult if not impossible to do on Evo.

Hot Spots and Server Population
Whilst Evo's compact and nostalgic design is probably a plus we still need a few people to make the map feel allive. Wether thats 10/15 peole roaming around Rockford's or Evo's Mainstreet does not make a difference. People that want to seclude themselves to farm etc. will allways have that option and will allways leave the same impact.

Restrictive Layout and Problems
Meanwhile the circular or in some cases dead-end map layout of the evo maps is realy restrictive on rps. Police pursuits can easily choked off, racing events are impossible without locking down vital roads (the same goes for likewise events/rps) bus routes can only go in one driection...
Whilst yes to some degree it is impossible to avoid others - that forced level of interaction may bring more problems that it will solve. Chokepoints are never a good idea if they have no alternative. Large scale rps (like disasters/zombies etc.) will easily block off vital map parts, passive people will get caught too easily in the crossfire of others and even the most basic small scale rp like road-maintenance or a properly rped accident will cause chaos.

Building Space
Rockford has much more spaces to build. Unlike evo all its highways offer enough space to either side to build a great variety of dupes whilst large parking lots and plain fields like the areas near the beach or the crossing of us 64 and 54 are perfect for bases and events. Meanwhile evocity has grassy fields (which although its a pretty boring plain area/without any neat scenery :/  is a plus) but lacks alternative small/mid-sized building areas. The only ones that come to my mind are some plains near DTM, the small field right after the hospital tunnel as well as smaller areas within industrial and the suburbs (which allow for limited dupes).

The Shops
Evo lacks shops. Yes Evo  City does feature a few shops but they are located and setup very unevenly. With the ampm, the burker king, the bank and the 2 shops on mainstreet beeing the most desirable ones we will see competition for those places that can be a massive burden on the servers rp-economy. Rockford on the otherhand has a larger ammount of empty stores located evenly in several places ensuring that everyone will get a change to setup shops and rps.
Furthermore Rockford has almost no predecorated shops which makes it much more convenient to build litterarly anything you like. The AMPM, the bank and the clothing outlet on mainstreet impose unescessary limits and make it hard to build freely.

Unique locations and the overall enviroment
Most evo maps do not have any elevation, making skiing/sledding, bungeejumping, paragliding, larger waterparks, mountainclimbing and various base designs etc. impossible. This may sound minor and is indeed not a major concern - but it is a very unescessary limit on a great variety of rps/dupes and ideas.
This concern also becomes more important with a look towards the further development of MESKA and its Mining&Material part. Rockford does have a ravine, TN had a mine. Evo lacks those.

Service Stations
Rockford has a neat setup for all the public service stations. Especially the police station is a really nice feature as Evo lacks that. And its firestation (whilst a bit too large) is much better then Evos (the same goes for its bank and townhall btw.).

Texture quality and competition
The overall texture quality of evo is just a bit upsetting with some buildings having unfunctional windows and overall poor texturing.
Also, i am not sure wether it is a wise idea to switch to a map wich is used by competing communities. What set LL appart from others is that we have a more modern and advanced style... If we close that gap we may loose a massive advantage.

In short:
Yes I know that many of you like evo. And i gotta admit i do enjoy its nostalgic vibe too, though it also feels old, outdated and shows unescessary flaws/restrictions. A great variety of RPs I did are simply impossible or hard to setup on a map like evo:
- a large scale bowling alley that would not fit into the city would make little sense in the woods
- several funfairs are dependant on elevation or an open lake/ocean
- racing tracks and impactfull events (contaigion/zombie events/large crashes/fires) are impossible without choking off half the map.

And as mentioned above: our gamemode and map make us stand out - lets keep it that way.

Content and Economy
Whilst I can assure you that our devs are working hard I agree that we need more content and that we could really benefit from new contributors as well.
It may be helpfull to point out though that major updates like stormfox and the first stage of MESKA (which is a really promising project btw) take their time. We release those large scale projects in about the same pace other communitys do.
Though we could benefit from smaller updates (like new misc items, vehicle/clan skins, cahnges to our economy etc.). I have a few ideas in mind some of which i still need to write down orderly. Ill submit those soon. There have been quite a few promising ideas both in this thread and the suggestions section and im eager to see the discussion in todays meeting.


With that beeing said:
We can recover, we will recover and it will be worth it

Thanks for all the contributions to this discussion and the efforts that went into that direction.

[Montyfatcat]

I agree with Marsh. Part of what we need is a map that holds an evo-seque layout, whilst keeping a rockford level of building quality, and has a TN level of optimisation (which is actually a well optimised map when you consider size vs frames)

[Yazeed]

Totally agree with Mr.Marsh here

[BlackDog]

"FailRP" seems to be more a "I don't like what you're doing despite there not being a rule against it".

I think @BlackDog‍ could possibly shed more light on that.

You could easily sum it up as doing something dumb as fuck that does not feel like you are doing it to play out a real scenario.
It's mostly just common sense.

The problem with FailRP though, is it isnt common sense.

FailRP is a general purpose term that can be applied in most situations should it be required or simply desired to be applied.

In forceghosts situation:

An action was comitted that has been allowed for a very long time, various types of this action have been done and accepted by staff to be done by non staff.

Then it is decided at that very moment that said action is no longer acceptable, and rather than simply informing said players involved of this and having them stop, punishment is handed out.

Punishment is also not handed out on a player by player basis in this situation as is always, but is applied to a group as a whole equally, regardless of their involvment level, or if they had or actually hadnt broken a rule.

There are even rules that directly counter this kind of thing being punishable:

[font=Whitney,]3.3 - Do not do unrealistic things out of context (FailRP). Think of reasons for your actions and what you do and ask yourself if it’s realistic – e.g running around the city punching everyone as the President is FailRP. This also applies to unrealistic buildings out of context.[/font]
[font=Whitney,](A private fishing area is not unrealistic, nor out of context, and has been allowed in the past many times without question)[/font]

[font=Whitney,]6.2 - You require staff permission to build in areas you do not own (unless it’s outside the city, but not on roads), or the president’s permission if it’s the Town Hall. You may spawn small, roleplay-appropriate props in areas you do not own.[/font]
[font=Whitney,](You cant get farther out of the city than the lake and thus builds on it, of anykind are more or less acceptable)[/font]

This to me is exactly the kind of thing people refer to when they say the rules are enforced to heavily.

It would be like this:

Example:

5 players want to raid the president, and 4 of them gear up with guns and armor, all 5 head to the town hall, 1 player stays a good distance away with no gun and simply stands watch and reports in all police sightings, while the other 4 rush in and kill a bunch of people.

It would then turn out that they had no reason for the raid in the first place or simply an invalid or poor reason.

All 5 players recieve Weapons blacklists and bans, even though 1 of them hadnt used a gun, or taken part in the raid directly, and meerly kept watch.

The question to ask now is: Is this fair? 4 players would have broken a written rule, while the other player was meerly on watch and was in the group, should the player on watch recieve the entire punishment, some, or none?



To me: None,He didnt raid anyone, he didnt attack anyone, and all he did was talk thus he didnt break any rules, so why would he be punished? 


To more line it up with forceghosts situation:

Lets just say a rule did exist that said you couldnt monitize the fishing area by locking down the land.

Two players take part in the action, 1 of them builds the fence and locks it down, while the other builds bungalos for players to rent.

Both players reiceve punishment for blocking it off, even though only one did. 

Question: If the rule was written, and if only one player blocked off the area in question breaking said rule and the other simply built a house in it, should the house player recieve the same punishment for being involved in the overall situation?

[Soviethooves]

There's alot of discussion about rules being too tough but nothing really specific. 

Anyone wanna elaborate on particular rules they'd like see adjusted or removed?

For me personally, anything involving staff permission should be thrown out the window. No reason to block a really good RP on the off chance there is a bad apple or two. If there is a bad one, it may be better to tell them how to do it better than shut it down.

I’ll think of some more later when I get a second.

[Welker]

Map Feedback (Rockford would be a needed compromise)

Id favor Rockford as its the best compromise between the elaborate map structure of TN and the compact design of evo. We did not really have any mayor population issues on Rockford and it is still large enough to accommodate a great variety of RPs that would be very difficult if not impossible to do on Evo.

Hot Spots and Server Population
Whilst Evo's compact and nostalgic design is probably a plus we still need a few people to make the map feel allive. Wether thats 10/15 peole roaming around Rockford's or Evo's Mainstreet does not make a difference. People that want to seclude themselves to farm etc. will allways have that option and will allways leave the same impact.

I have to disagree completely with what you're saying about the main hub areas of Rockford VS Evo. Rockfords hub area never worked because there's literally 1 central building on mainstreet and all the other back ones were never used and out of the way, never receiving any attention. This is never the case in Evo as there's 3 main store buildings along with AMPM and the bank that's easily noticeable at the central area. 

Restrictive Layout and Problems
Meanwhile the circular or in some cases dead-end map layout of the evo maps is realy restrictive on rps. Police pursuits can easily choked off, racing events are impossible without locking down vital roads (the same goes for likewise events/rps) bus routes can only go in one driection...
Whilst yes to some degree it is impossible to avoid others - that forced level of interaction may bring more problems that it will solve. Chokepoints are never a good idea if they have no alternative. Large scale rps (like disasters/zombies etc.) will easily block off vital map parts, passive people will get caught too easily in the crossfire of others and even the most basic small scale rp like road-maintenance or a properly rped accident will cause chaos.

Building Space
Rockford has much more spaces to build. Unlike evo all its highways offer enough space to either side to build a great variety of dupes whilst large parking lots and plain fields like the areas near the beach or the crossing of us 64 and 54 are perfect for bases and events. Meanwhile evocity has grassy fields (which although its a pretty boring plain area/without any neat scenery :/  is a plus) but lacks alternative small/mid-sized building areas. The only ones that come to my mind are some plains near DTM, the small field right after the hospital tunnel as well as smaller areas within industrial and the suburbs (which allow for limited dupes).

Disagree again, Evo has many great high quality building areas which Rockford simply does not have anything near. For this example I'll use v4b1 since its the most popular evo map, Grassy fields, entire area at the lake, empty lat at Corleone estate are all appropriate for building medium or large dupes. There's many more flat areas that can accommodate small-medium dupes. Rockford was hell to build in

The Shops
Evo lacks shops. Yes Evo  City does feature a few shops but they are located and setup very unevenly. With the ampm, the burker king, the bank and the 2 shops on mainstreet beeing the most desirable ones we will see competition for those places that can be a massive burden on the servers rp-economy. Rockford on the otherhand has a larger ammount of empty stores located evenly in several places ensuring that everyone will get a change to setup shops and rps.

Much like True North, Rockford has an oversaturation of shops which are low quality and terrible for attracting people due to the lack of mainstreet availability. You're also forgetting the 4 stores behind the mainstreet area bringing the entire mainstreet store count to a total of 10. More than enough.

Furthermore Rockford has almost no predecorated shops which makes it much more convenient to build litterarly anything you like. The AMPM, the bank and the clothing outlet on mainstreet impose unescessary limits and make it hard to build freely.

Agreed it would be preferable these buildings were not decorated however they have minimal furniture in comparison to buildings like the bank or town hall in Rockford. 

Unique locations and the overall enviroment
Most evo maps do not have any elevation, making skiing/sledding, bungeejumping, paragliding, larger waterparks, mountainclimbing and various base designs etc. impossible. This may sound minor and is indeed not a major concern - but it is a very unescessary limit on a great variety of rps/dupes and ideas.
This concern also becomes more important with a look towards the further development of MESKA and its Mining&Material part. Rockford does have a ravine, TN had a mine. Evo lacks those.

Service Stations
Rockford has a neat setup for all the public service stations. Especially the police station is a really nice feature as Evo lacks that. And its firestation (whilst a bit too large) is much better then Evos (the same goes for its bank and townhall btw.).

Texture quality and competition
The overall texture quality of evo is just a bit upsetting with some buildings having unfunctional windows and overall poor texturing.
Also, i am not sure wether it is a wise idea to switch to a map wich is used by competing communities. What set LL appart from others is that we have a more modern and advanced style... If we close that gap we may loose a massive advantage.

Texture quality is fine and comparable to any other gmod map. I'd argue to say that Evo actually has better textures. Shying away from competition is a terrible idea. Look where we got from being "unique" and going to True North, a big fucking mess. Go with a map that works, go with a map that has been tried and tested and is loved. Not a map that's going to be a compromise.

In short:
Yes I know that many of you like evo. And i gotta admit i do enjoy its nostalgic vibe too, though it also feels old, outdated and shows unescessary flaws/restrictions. A great variety of RPs I did are simply impossible or hard to setup on a map like evo:
- a large scale bowling alley that would not fit into the city would make little sense in the woods
- several funfairs are dependant on elevation or an open lake/ocean
- racing tracks and impactfull events (contaigion/zombie events/large crashes/fires) are impossible without choking off half the map.

And as mentioned above: our gamemode and map make us stand out - lets keep it that way.

[Markus]

Map Feedback (Rockford would be a needed compromise)

Id favor Rockford as its the best compromise between the elaborate map structure of TN and the compact design of evo. We did not really have any mayor population issues on Rockford and it is still large enough to accommodate a great variety of RPs that would be very difficult if not impossible to do on Evo.

Hot Spots and Server Population
Whilst Evo's compact and nostalgic design is probably a plus we still need a few people to make the map feel allive. Wether thats 10/15 peole roaming around Rockford's or Evo's Mainstreet does not make a difference. People that want to seclude themselves to farm etc. will allways have that option and will allways leave the same impact.

I have to disagree completely with what you're saying about the main hub areas of Rockford VS Evo. Rockfords hub area never worked because there's literally 1 central building on mainstreet and all the other back ones were never used and out of the way, never receiving any attention. This is never the case in Evo as there's 3 main store buildings along with AMPM and the bank that's easily noticeable at the central area. 

Restrictive Layout and Problems
Meanwhile the circular or in some cases dead-end map layout of the evo maps is realy restrictive on rps. Police pursuits can easily choked off, racing events are impossible without locking down vital roads (the same goes for likewise events/rps) bus routes can only go in one driection...
Whilst yes to some degree it is impossible to avoid others - that forced level of interaction may bring more problems that it will solve. Chokepoints are never a good idea if they have no alternative. Large scale rps (like disasters/zombies etc.) will easily block off vital map parts, passive people will get caught too easily in the crossfire of others and even the most basic small scale rp like road-maintenance or a properly rped accident will cause chaos.

Building Space
Rockford has much more spaces to build. Unlike evo all its highways offer enough space to either side to build a great variety of dupes whilst large parking lots and plain fields like the areas near the beach or the crossing of us 64 and 54 are perfect for bases and events. Meanwhile evocity has grassy fields (which although its a pretty boring plain area/without any neat scenery :/  is a plus) but lacks alternative small/mid-sized building areas. The only ones that come to my mind are some plains near DTM, the small field right after the hospital tunnel as well as smaller areas within industrial and the suburbs (which allow for limited dupes).

Disagree again, Evo has many great high quality building areas which Rockford simply does not have anything near. For this example I'll use v4b1 since its the most popular evo map, Grassy fields, entire area at the lake, empty lat at Corleone estate are all appropriate for building medium or large dupes. There's many more flat areas that can accommodate small-medium dupes. Rockford was hell to build in

The Shops
Evo lacks shops. Yes Evo  City does feature a few shops but they are located and setup very unevenly. With the ampm, the burker king, the bank and the 2 shops on mainstreet beeing the most desirable ones we will see competition for those places that can be a massive burden on the servers rp-economy. Rockford on the otherhand has a larger ammount of empty stores located evenly in several places ensuring that everyone will get a change to setup shops and rps.

Much like True North, Rockford has an oversaturation of shops which are low quality and terrible for attracting people due to the lack of mainstreet availability. You're also forgetting the 4 stores behind the mainstreet area bringing the entire mainstreet store count to a total of 10. More than enough.

Furthermore Rockford has almost no predecorated shops which makes it much more convenient to build litterarly anything you like. The AMPM, the bank and the clothing outlet on mainstreet impose unescessary limits and make it hard to build freely.

Agreed it would be preferable these buildings were not decorated however they have minimal furniture in comparison to buildings like the bank or town hall in Rockford. 

Unique locations and the overall enviroment
Most evo maps do not have any elevation, making skiing/sledding, bungeejumping, paragliding, larger waterparks, mountainclimbing and various base designs etc. impossible. This may sound minor and is indeed not a major concern - but it is a very unescessary limit on a great variety of rps/dupes and ideas.
This concern also becomes more important with a look towards the further development of MESKA and its Mining&Material part. Rockford does have a ravine, TN had a mine. Evo lacks those.

Service Stations
Rockford has a neat setup for all the public service stations. Especially the police station is a really nice feature as Evo lacks that. And its firestation (whilst a bit too large) is much better then Evos (the same goes for its bank and townhall btw.).

Texture quality and competition
The overall texture quality of evo is just a bit upsetting with some buildings having unfunctional windows and overall poor texturing.
Also, i am not sure wether it is a wise idea to switch to a map wich is used by competing communities. What set LL appart from others is that we have a more modern and advanced style... If we close that gap we may loose a massive advantage.

Texture quality is fine and comparable to any other gmod map. I'd argue to say that Evo actually has better textures. Shying away from competition is a terrible idea. Look where we got from being "unique" and going to True North, a big fucking mess. Go with a map that works, go with a map that has been tried and tested and is loved. Not a map that's going to be a compromise.

In short:
Yes I know that many of you like evo. And i gotta admit i do enjoy its nostalgic vibe too, though it also feels old, outdated and shows unescessary flaws/restrictions. A great variety of RPs I did are simply impossible or hard to setup on a map like evo:
- a large scale bowling alley that would not fit into the city would make little sense in the woods
- several funfairs are dependant on elevation or an open lake/ocean
- racing tracks and impactfull events (contaigion/zombie events/large crashes/fires) are impossible without choking off half the map.

And as mentioned above: our gamemode and map make us stand out - lets keep it that way.

First of all, I believe that TrueNorth was and is a great map, it is just simply too big for the skeleton crew we have on if at all.

Secondly, the shops on TrueNorth are great and can be used extensively (with main street availability), but not with so few players.

Thirdly, Rockford was great to build in.

Fourthly, I agree that Evo should be given a try. It is a necessary evil and while most oldschool and relevant people liked Truenorth, it is the hero Limelight needs, but not the one it deserves.

[Judge Rage]

-SNIPPITY SNIP-

I think that Evo has to be the best option.

Every time we've did a map change, we've experienced a decline in population, right up to what we're looking at right now.

Evo attracts players from all across Garry's Mod as a well-known and respected map throughout the wider community. Truenorth is practically unheard of, hence why nobody has it and nobody joins if they see it on the serverlist.