[Bambo]

As I said before, the issue is not an individual or a group, so it will not be productive to focus on them. What will be productive is how the issue arises. A gap in the rules? A grey area needing clarifaction? A gamemode bug?

The way to tackle that is not to argue back and forth in a thread about solutions. The way to tackle that is to make a suggestion, a bug report, shed light on the issue. 

We will fix it, if there is an issue that makes the server experience drop. We are working on a couple of fixes right now, but we need you, the community, to work with us here. 

Please do not argue and take this thread off-topic, as these will become back and forth arguments proved by previous warnings.

I understand the tension, I understand how annoying it can be, but arguing it doesn't solve it, making a suggestion or a bug report is the step to solve it.

Work with us, instead of working against each other. Please.

[Lewwings]

In my opinion:

1. Change map
2. Lax the rules in some areas
3. Reward those actively helping LL, retire those who aren’t 
4. Fix the SA team’s current situation

[Welker]

There's alot of discussion about rules being too tough but nothing really specific. 

Anyone wanna elaborate on particular rules they'd like see adjusted or removed?

[ForceGhost]

[Markus]

[Markus]

[Judge Rage]

[MrMarsh]

[Montyfatcat]

I agree with Marsh. Part of what we need is a map that holds an evo-seque layout, whilst keeping a rockford level of building quality, and has a TN level of optimisation (which is actually a well optimised map when you consider size vs frames)

[Yazeed]

Totally agree with Mr.Marsh here

[BlackDog]

[Soviethooves]

There's alot of discussion about rules being too tough but nothing really specific. 

Anyone wanna elaborate on particular rules they'd like see adjusted or removed?

For me personally, anything involving staff permission should be thrown out the window. No reason to block a really good RP on the off chance there is a bad apple or two. If there is a bad one, it may be better to tell them how to do it better than shut it down.

I’ll think of some more later when I get a second.

[Welker]

Map Feedback (Rockford would be a needed compromise)

Id favor Rockford as its the best compromise between the elaborate map structure of TN and the compact design of evo. We did not really have any mayor population issues on Rockford and it is still large enough to accommodate a great variety of RPs that would be very difficult if not impossible to do on Evo.

Hot Spots and Server Population
Whilst Evo's compact and nostalgic design is probably a plus we still need a few people to make the map feel allive. Wether thats 10/15 peole roaming around Rockford's or Evo's Mainstreet does not make a difference. People that want to seclude themselves to farm etc. will allways have that option and will allways leave the same impact.

I have to disagree completely with what you're saying about the main hub areas of Rockford VS Evo. Rockfords hub area never worked because there's literally 1 central building on mainstreet and all the other back ones were never used and out of the way, never receiving any attention. This is never the case in Evo as there's 3 main store buildings along with AMPM and the bank that's easily noticeable at the central area. 

Restrictive Layout and Problems
Meanwhile the circular or in some cases dead-end map layout of the evo maps is realy restrictive on rps. Police pursuits can easily choked off, racing events are impossible without locking down vital roads (the same goes for likewise events/rps) bus routes can only go in one driection...
Whilst yes to some degree it is impossible to avoid others - that forced level of interaction may bring more problems that it will solve. Chokepoints are never a good idea if they have no alternative. Large scale rps (like disasters/zombies etc.) will easily block off vital map parts, passive people will get caught too easily in the crossfire of others and even the most basic small scale rp like road-maintenance or a properly rped accident will cause chaos.

Building Space
Rockford has much more spaces to build. Unlike evo all its highways offer enough space to either side to build a great variety of dupes whilst large parking lots and plain fields like the areas near the beach or the crossing of us 64 and 54 are perfect for bases and events. Meanwhile evocity has grassy fields (which although its a pretty boring plain area/without any neat scenery :/  is a plus) but lacks alternative small/mid-sized building areas. The only ones that come to my mind are some plains near DTM, the small field right after the hospital tunnel as well as smaller areas within industrial and the suburbs (which allow for limited dupes).

Disagree again, Evo has many great high quality building areas which Rockford simply does not have anything near. For this example I'll use v4b1 since its the most popular evo map, Grassy fields, entire area at the lake, empty lat at Corleone estate are all appropriate for building medium or large dupes. There's many more flat areas that can accommodate small-medium dupes. Rockford was hell to build in

The Shops
Evo lacks shops. Yes Evo  City does feature a few shops but they are located and setup very unevenly. With the ampm, the burker king, the bank and the 2 shops on mainstreet beeing the most desirable ones we will see competition for those places that can be a massive burden on the servers rp-economy. Rockford on the otherhand has a larger ammount of empty stores located evenly in several places ensuring that everyone will get a change to setup shops and rps.

Much like True North, Rockford has an oversaturation of shops which are low quality and terrible for attracting people due to the lack of mainstreet availability. You're also forgetting the 4 stores behind the mainstreet area bringing the entire mainstreet store count to a total of 10. More than enough.

Furthermore Rockford has almost no predecorated shops which makes it much more convenient to build litterarly anything you like. The AMPM, the bank and the clothing outlet on mainstreet impose unescessary limits and make it hard to build freely.

Agreed it would be preferable these buildings were not decorated however they have minimal furniture in comparison to buildings like the bank or town hall in Rockford. 

Unique locations and the overall enviroment
Most evo maps do not have any elevation, making skiing/sledding, bungeejumping, paragliding, larger waterparks, mountainclimbing and various base designs etc. impossible. This may sound minor and is indeed not a major concern - but it is a very unescessary limit on a great variety of rps/dupes and ideas.
This concern also becomes more important with a look towards the further development of MESKA and its Mining&Material part. Rockford does have a ravine, TN had a mine. Evo lacks those.

Service Stations
Rockford has a neat setup for all the public service stations. Especially the police station is a really nice feature as Evo lacks that. And its firestation (whilst a bit too large) is much better then Evos (the same goes for its bank and townhall btw.).

Texture quality and competition
The overall texture quality of evo is just a bit upsetting with some buildings having unfunctional windows and overall poor texturing.
Also, i am not sure wether it is a wise idea to switch to a map wich is used by competing communities. What set LL appart from others is that we have a more modern and advanced style... If we close that gap we may loose a massive advantage.

Texture quality is fine and comparable to any other gmod map. I'd argue to say that Evo actually has better textures. Shying away from competition is a terrible idea. Look where we got from being "unique" and going to True North, a big fucking mess. Go with a map that works, go with a map that has been tried and tested and is loved. Not a map that's going to be a compromise.

In short:
Yes I know that many of you like evo. And i gotta admit i do enjoy its nostalgic vibe too, though it also feels old, outdated and shows unescessary flaws/restrictions. A great variety of RPs I did are simply impossible or hard to setup on a map like evo:
- a large scale bowling alley that would not fit into the city would make little sense in the woods
- several funfairs are dependant on elevation or an open lake/ocean
- racing tracks and impactfull events (contaigion/zombie events/large crashes/fires) are impossible without choking off half the map.

And as mentioned above: our gamemode and map make us stand out - lets keep it that way.

[Markus]

Map Feedback (Rockford would be a needed compromise)

Id favor Rockford as its the best compromise between the elaborate map structure of TN and the compact design of evo. We did not really have any mayor population issues on Rockford and it is still large enough to accommodate a great variety of RPs that would be very difficult if not impossible to do on Evo.

Hot Spots and Server Population
Whilst Evo's compact and nostalgic design is probably a plus we still need a few people to make the map feel allive. Wether thats 10/15 peole roaming around Rockford's or Evo's Mainstreet does not make a difference. People that want to seclude themselves to farm etc. will allways have that option and will allways leave the same impact.

I have to disagree completely with what you're saying about the main hub areas of Rockford VS Evo. Rockfords hub area never worked because there's literally 1 central building on mainstreet and all the other back ones were never used and out of the way, never receiving any attention. This is never the case in Evo as there's 3 main store buildings along with AMPM and the bank that's easily noticeable at the central area. 

Restrictive Layout and Problems
Meanwhile the circular or in some cases dead-end map layout of the evo maps is realy restrictive on rps. Police pursuits can easily choked off, racing events are impossible without locking down vital roads (the same goes for likewise events/rps) bus routes can only go in one driection...
Whilst yes to some degree it is impossible to avoid others - that forced level of interaction may bring more problems that it will solve. Chokepoints are never a good idea if they have no alternative. Large scale rps (like disasters/zombies etc.) will easily block off vital map parts, passive people will get caught too easily in the crossfire of others and even the most basic small scale rp like road-maintenance or a properly rped accident will cause chaos.

Building Space
Rockford has much more spaces to build. Unlike evo all its highways offer enough space to either side to build a great variety of dupes whilst large parking lots and plain fields like the areas near the beach or the crossing of us 64 and 54 are perfect for bases and events. Meanwhile evocity has grassy fields (which although its a pretty boring plain area/without any neat scenery :/  is a plus) but lacks alternative small/mid-sized building areas. The only ones that come to my mind are some plains near DTM, the small field right after the hospital tunnel as well as smaller areas within industrial and the suburbs (which allow for limited dupes).

Disagree again, Evo has many great high quality building areas which Rockford simply does not have anything near. For this example I'll use v4b1 since its the most popular evo map, Grassy fields, entire area at the lake, empty lat at Corleone estate are all appropriate for building medium or large dupes. There's many more flat areas that can accommodate small-medium dupes. Rockford was hell to build in

The Shops
Evo lacks shops. Yes Evo  City does feature a few shops but they are located and setup very unevenly. With the ampm, the burker king, the bank and the 2 shops on mainstreet beeing the most desirable ones we will see competition for those places that can be a massive burden on the servers rp-economy. Rockford on the otherhand has a larger ammount of empty stores located evenly in several places ensuring that everyone will get a change to setup shops and rps.

Much like True North, Rockford has an oversaturation of shops which are low quality and terrible for attracting people due to the lack of mainstreet availability. You're also forgetting the 4 stores behind the mainstreet area bringing the entire mainstreet store count to a total of 10. More than enough.

Furthermore Rockford has almost no predecorated shops which makes it much more convenient to build litterarly anything you like. The AMPM, the bank and the clothing outlet on mainstreet impose unescessary limits and make it hard to build freely.

Agreed it would be preferable these buildings were not decorated however they have minimal furniture in comparison to buildings like the bank or town hall in Rockford. 

Unique locations and the overall enviroment
Most evo maps do not have any elevation, making skiing/sledding, bungeejumping, paragliding, larger waterparks, mountainclimbing and various base designs etc. impossible. This may sound minor and is indeed not a major concern - but it is a very unescessary limit on a great variety of rps/dupes and ideas.
This concern also becomes more important with a look towards the further development of MESKA and its Mining&Material part. Rockford does have a ravine, TN had a mine. Evo lacks those.

Service Stations
Rockford has a neat setup for all the public service stations. Especially the police station is a really nice feature as Evo lacks that. And its firestation (whilst a bit too large) is much better then Evos (the same goes for its bank and townhall btw.).

Texture quality and competition
The overall texture quality of evo is just a bit upsetting with some buildings having unfunctional windows and overall poor texturing.
Also, i am not sure wether it is a wise idea to switch to a map wich is used by competing communities. What set LL appart from others is that we have a more modern and advanced style... If we close that gap we may loose a massive advantage.

Texture quality is fine and comparable to any other gmod map. I'd argue to say that Evo actually has better textures. Shying away from competition is a terrible idea. Look where we got from being "unique" and going to True North, a big fucking mess. Go with a map that works, go with a map that has been tried and tested and is loved. Not a map that's going to be a compromise.

In short:
Yes I know that many of you like evo. And i gotta admit i do enjoy its nostalgic vibe too, though it also feels old, outdated and shows unescessary flaws/restrictions. A great variety of RPs I did are simply impossible or hard to setup on a map like evo:
- a large scale bowling alley that would not fit into the city would make little sense in the woods
- several funfairs are dependant on elevation or an open lake/ocean
- racing tracks and impactfull events (contaigion/zombie events/large crashes/fires) are impossible without choking off half the map.

And as mentioned above: our gamemode and map make us stand out - lets keep it that way.

First of all, I believe that TrueNorth was and is a great map, it is just simply too big for the skeleton crew we have on if at all.

Secondly, the shops on TrueNorth are great and can be used extensively (with main street availability), but not with so few players.

Thirdly, Rockford was great to build in.

Fourthly, I agree that Evo should be given a try. It is a necessary evil and while most oldschool and relevant people liked Truenorth, it is the hero Limelight needs, but not the one it deserves.

[Judge Rage]

-SNIPPITY SNIP-

I think that Evo has to be the best option.

Every time we've did a map change, we've experienced a decline in population, right up to what we're looking at right now.

Evo attracts players from all across Garry's Mod as a well-known and respected map throughout the wider community. Truenorth is practically unheard of, hence why nobody has it and nobody joins if they see it on the serverlist.