[bimkx]

The moment you all stop bitching about the map like a bunch of morons we can begin to fix the real problems on LL. A MAP IS NOT CONTENT, A MAP IS WHERE YOU PUT THE CONTENT. 

No matter what map you choose, you'll still get the same experience NO MATTER WHAT. Shoot cops, farm weed, drive around, and minge around. No map will change that you guys. What we need to do is fill our map, TrueNorth, with content and things to do. Fun things to grind at and help our accounts progress to something that feels meaningful. Content is what we need; so long have we been dependent on the playerbase to make the content for us, we are all supposed to make our own fun, but that formula simply doesn't work with 30 players max on the server.

We need to implement new things to do, and I've been trying to get all of you to see this for the longest time. Hire more devs, bring in new things to do, and we will see more people sticking around. An occupied server brings new people in and makes them want to stay once they make friends and begin to find a new home in the community. It's a simple chicken and the egg situation. What comes first, the players or the content? You're stupid if you think the players come first in any meaningful way.

New, interesting, and engaging content = more players, simple as that.

MAP =/= CONTENT

Get this through all of your skulls and LL will be put on a better path.

What a stupid post. By that logic GM_Flatgrass would be fine. The map is part of the content and overall experience of the server.

edit: Specifically the roleplays you mentioned revolved around Aggressive RP too. The map matters oh so much for Passive RP.

[Doctor Internet]

Doc I think that's a silly argument. People voted for it, tried it and it isn't working clearly. Just because something was voted for at the time doesn't mean that the opinion hasn't shifted after it's been tried and tested.

Perhaps so, but this is the same argument that's happened with every map.

TrueNorth.
Florida.
Rockford.
Evo v2p.
Evo v4b1.
Evo 33x.
Evo 2d.

They've all had these arguments, and people popping out the woodwork to call them shit and how X map is better.

I'm not calling TN shit or saying X map is better, I just feel that the proof is in the pudding right now. Personally, I don't like TN that much but it's a decent map I just don't think it works too well on LL. It's hugely open and it does feel like there are less players on the map, even when the player count does get over 30.

Maybe I'm just stuck in the glory days of logging onto V2D and spawning mainstreet around 30 other people lol

I didn't say that you were here to call TN shit. I'm trying to get over how difficult it is to read what the community wants, when the community itself doesn't seem to know, and whenever we do something, everyone immediately wants something else or something different.

We have this issue in development, where only like 20% of people think they can give input to the development team? (I can't recall numbers off the top of my head) Where people state they want a DNC and Weather for added immersion, and then when it's added everyone complains about the framerate issues it causes.

We have it in administration. Where the community wants active staff members on the server, then complains "oh who" when we bring back active veterans. Where some members of the community think it's their right to set their character details to "imperial nigger lyncher" and "wants to kill the limelight """"gym"""" staff", then claim it's unfair when we decide that's over the line?

Does TN have issues? Yeah, for sure. I'm not denying that. It's just annoying and extremely difficult to gauge the severity from a community that sinewaves back and forth on what it wants and deems acceptable. Could TN be the death of LL? For sure. Could TN be the best map and it's a few people claiming it's doom? It could also be. But it's hard to tell, especially when other gmod-related things are dropping at the same time

It's a difficult situation.
We don't want the servers to die.
We don't want people to be bored and leave.

But looking at graphs that show a gradual decrease over a year, with no major changes at key points; claiming it to be the doom of LL? That doesn't stick with me.

[bimkx]

Perhaps so, but this is the same argument that's happened with every map.

TrueNorth.
Florida.
Rockford.
Evo v2p.
Evo v4b1.
Evo 33x.
Evo 2d.

They've all had these arguments, and people popping out the woodwork to call them shit and how X map is better.

I'm not calling TN shit or saying X map is better, I just feel that the proof is in the pudding right now. Personally, I don't like TN that much but it's a decent map I just don't think it works too well on LL. It's hugely open and it does feel like there are less players on the map, even when the player count does get over 30.

Maybe I'm just stuck in the glory days of logging onto V2D and spawning mainstreet around 30 other people lol

I didn't say that you were here to call TN shit. I'm trying to get over how difficult it is to read what the community wants, when the community itself doesn't seem to know, and whenever we do something, everyone immediately wants something else or something different.

We have this issue in development, where only like 20% of people think they can give input to the development team? (I can't recall numbers off the top of my head) Where people state they want a DNC and Weather for added immersion, and then when it's added everyone complains about the framerate issues it causes.

We have it in administration.  Where the community wants active staff members on the server, then complains "oh who" when we bring back active veterans. Where some members of the community think it's their right to set their character details to "imperial nigger lyncher" and "wants to kill the limelight """"gym"""" staff", then claim it's unfair when we decide that's over the line?

Does TN have issues? Yeah, for sure. I'm not denying that. It's just annoying and extremely difficult to gauge the severity from a community that sinewaves back and forth on what it wants and deems acceptable. Could TN be the death of LL? For sure. Could TN be the best map and it's a few people claiming it's doom? It could also be. But it's hard to tell, especially when other gmod-related things are dropping at the same time

It's a difficult situation.
We don't want the servers to die.
We don't want people to be bored and leave.

But looking at graphs that show a gradual decrease over a year, with no major changes at key points; claiming it to be the doom of LL? That doesn't stick with me.

Thanks for clearing up what you meant, it's a lot more clarified here.

Unfortunately I think that's the way any GMod community will be. Ignoring player count for a sec, the community doesn't know how the experience will be with the map until it's live and running on the server. I feel that now everyone's had chance to experience it, it would probably be worth holding a proper poll so that you can gauge what people actually want. I would agree with you if people were kicking off at TN before it was live but I think things have changed now that it's actually been on the server.

Edit: What's the graph?

[Doctor Internet]

I'm not calling TN shit or saying X map is better, I just feel that the proof is in the pudding right now. Personally, I don't like TN that much but it's a decent map I just don't think it works too well on LL. It's hugely open and it does feel like there are less players on the map, even when the player count does get over 30.

Maybe I'm just stuck in the glory days of logging onto V2D and spawning mainstreet around 30 other people lol

I didn't say that you were here to call TN shit. I'm trying to get over how difficult it is to read what the community wants, when the community itself doesn't seem to know, and whenever we do something, everyone immediately wants something else or something different.

We have this issue in development, where only like 20% of people think they can give input to the development team? (I can't recall numbers off the top of my head) Where people state they want a DNC and Weather for added immersion, and then when it's added everyone complains about the framerate issues it causes.

We have it in administration.  Where the community wants active staff members on the server, then complains "oh who" when we bring back active veterans. Where some members of the community think it's their right to set their character details to "imperial nigger lyncher" and "wants to kill the limelight """"gym"""" staff", then claim it's unfair when we decide that's over the line?

Does TN have issues? Yeah, for sure. I'm not denying that. It's just annoying and extremely difficult to gauge the severity from a community that sinewaves back and forth on what it wants and deems acceptable. Could TN be the death of LL? For sure. Could TN be the best map and it's a few people claiming it's doom? It could also be. But it's hard to tell, especially when other gmod-related things are dropping at the same time

It's a difficult situation.
We don't want the servers to die.
We don't want people to be bored and leave.

But looking at graphs that show a gradual decrease over a year, with no major changes at key points; claiming it to be the doom of LL? That doesn't stick with me.

Unfortunately I think that's the way any GMod community will be. Ignoring player count for a sec, the community doesn't know how the experience will be with the map until it's live and running on the server. I feel that now everyone's had chance to experience it, it would probably be worth holding a proper poll so that you can gauge what people actually want....

Edit: What's the graph?

Perhaps so, but we did a trial run of every map. People wanted TN.

The graph is one of my GMS sales graphs.

[Quest]

@Doctor Internet‍ You did a week long trial period for each map which honestly didn't feel like much time to experience the map and understand how it'd feel to have it for such a long time or how it would affect the playercount/types of RPs we do. But I'm not sure if anyone agrees with me on that

[bimkx]

I'd forgotten about the trials. That does negate my point quite a bit actually.

[Vinic]

The moment you all stop bitching about the map like a bunch of morons we can begin to fix the real problems on LL. A MAP IS NOT CONTENT, A MAP IS WHERE YOU PUT THE CONTENT. 

No matter what map you choose, you'll still get the same experience NO MATTER WHAT. Shoot cops, farm weed, drive around, and minge around. No map will change that you guys. What we need to do is fill our map, TrueNorth, with content and things to do. Fun things to grind at and help our accounts progress to something that feels meaningful. Content is what we need; so long have we been dependent on the playerbase to make the content for us, we are all supposed to make our own fun, but that formula simply doesn't work with 30 players max on the server.

We need to implement new things to do, and I've been trying to get all of you to see this for the longest time. Hire more devs, bring in new things to do, and we will see more people sticking around. An occupied server brings new people in and makes them want to stay once they make friends and begin to find a new home in the community. It's a simple chicken and the egg situation. What comes first, the players or the content? You're stupid if you think the players come first in any meaningful way.

New, interesting, and engaging content = more players, simple as that.

MAP =/= CONTENT

Get this through all of your skulls and LL will be put on a better path.

What a stupid post. By that logic GM_Flatgrass would be fine. The map is part of the content and overall experience of the server.

edit: Specifically the roleplays you mentioned revolved around Aggressive RP too. The map matters oh so much for Passive RP.

You're clearly an idiot, so let me spell this out for you. If you take an orange and colour it pink, it still tastes the same (minus the permanent marker taste). An Evo map (or whatever you morons want) will have exactly the same content as a TrueNorth because you're not adding anything at all. It may look different, but the content loop is still the same: you get on, drive around, shoot people, farm money, etc. What will a new map do for you? What will it add? Rhetorical question, the answer is clearly nothing.

Let's turn our attention to a good game that has lasted over the years, GTA V. You don't EVER see the GTA V devs changing the map when things start to get stale, and that's because the GTA V devs are smart and know what to do to keep people playing the game: adding more things to do. Instead of changing the colour of the orange, they throw more things into the mix and create new things for people to do. Until you get this basic concept of games through your head, you will continue to be a part of the problem.

A map is simply the base for the content creator to add more things to do in. Although our map is far from perfect, I think it's a good starting point for us to build up from. No more map changes; no more of this stupid, endless cycle of map switches. Wise up all of you and start fixing the real problems. If this post hasn't spelled things out for you properly, @"LiVHDX"‍ , then I don't think anything ever will.

[bimkx]

The moment you all stop bitching about the map like a bunch of morons we can begin to fix the real problems on LL. A MAP IS NOT CONTENT, A MAP IS WHERE YOU PUT THE CONTENT. 

No matter what map you choose, you'll still get the same experience NO MATTER WHAT. Shoot cops, farm weed, drive around, and minge around. No map will change that you guys. What we need to do is fill our map, TrueNorth, with content and things to do. Fun things to grind at and help our accounts progress to something that feels meaningful. Content is what we need; so long have we been dependent on the playerbase to make the content for us, we are all supposed to make our own fun, but that formula simply doesn't work with 30 players max on the server.

We need to implement new things to do, and I've been trying to get all of you to see this for the longest time. Hire more devs, bring in new things to do, and we will see more people sticking around. An occupied server brings new people in and makes them want to stay once they make friends and begin to find a new home in the community. It's a simple chicken and the egg situation. What comes first, the players or the content? You're stupid if you think the players come first in any meaningful way.

New, interesting, and engaging content = more players, simple as that.

MAP =/= CONTENT

Get this through all of your skulls and LL will be put on a better path.

What a stupid post. By that logic GM_Flatgrass would be fine. The map is part of the content and overall experience of the server.

edit: Specifically the roleplays you mentioned revolved around Aggressive RP too. The map matters oh so much for Passive RP.

You're clearly an idiot, so let me spell this out for you. If you take an orange and colour it pink, it still tastes the same (minus the permanent marker taste). An Evo map (or whatever you morons want) will have exactly the same content as a TrueNorth because you're not adding anything at all. It may look different, but the content loop is still the same: you get on, drive around, shoot people, farm money, etc. What will a new map do for you? What will it add? Rhetorical question, the answer is clearly nothing.

Let's turn our attention to a good game that has lasted over the years, GTA V. You don't EVER see the GTA V devs changing the map when things start to get stale, and that's because the GTA V devs are smart and know what to do to keep people playing the game: adding more things to do. Instead of changing the colour of the orange, they throw more things into the mix and create new things for people to do. Until you get this basic concept of games through your head, you will continue to be a part of the problem.

A map is simply the base for the content creator to add more things to do in. Although our map is far from perfect, I think it's a good starting point for us to build up from. No more map changes; no more of this stupid, endless cycle of map switches. Wise up all of you and start fixing the real problems. If this post hasn't spelled things out for you properly, @"LiVHDX"‍ , then I don't think anything ever will.

I'm going to say 2 thing here.
1) Map does affect how passive RP works and plays out, something that GTA V doesn't have.
2) Do you mind not having a tantrum and insulting me?

[Vinic]

-Snipperino-

-Snipperino-

I'm going to say 2 thing here.
1) Map does affect how passive RP works and plays out, something that GTA V doesn't have.
2) Do you mind not having a tantrum and insulting me?

Don't even try to argue for PassiveRP when that shit has been dead for years now. LL has been banking on the one, simple content loop as I have mentioned before: shoot cops, base, farm weed, etc. and it should be very clear to everyone *that is not working*. The player count is dropping, people are losing interest, and we're not doing anything right to fix this.

You seem to be missing my point over and over again: a passive RP isn't changed in any major way by a map change. You can still set up a restaurant on an Evo map the same way you could on TrueNorth (problem is that nobody will show up to either restaurant). You can still run an EMT service RP on either map, just getting from point A to point B will be slightly different. Rave party RP, same thing different place. Camping RP, same thing different place. Crime scene RP, same thing different place. Starting to understand?

It's all the same: you still set up the same thing with the same results, different surroundings doesn't change a thing. A map doesn't change a thing. You're foolish to think otherwise; we need to add more things to do, not change the setting for the 5th or 6th time, because that's clearly not working. LL has been on a slow and steady downward spiral because you and many others keep preaching the same, stupid narrative. Changing the map won't change anything, wake up and realize this.

[Soviethooves]

I love TN. Only reason I don’t play anymore is because the GM is boring for me. You can only do so much RP that people don’t care about

[Welker]

-Snipperino-

I'm going to say 2 thing here.
1) Map does affect how passive RP works and plays out, something that GTA V doesn't have.
2) Do you mind not having a tantrum and insulting me?

Don't even try to argue for PassiveRP when that shit has been dead for years now. LL has been banking on the one, simple content loop as I have mentioned before: shoot cops, base, farm weed, etc. and it should be very clear to everyone *that is not working*. The player count is dropping, people are losing interest, and we're not doing anything right to fix this.

You seem to be missing my point over and over again: a passive RP isn't changed in any major way by a map change. You can still set up a restaurant on an Evo map the same way you could on TrueNorth (problem is that nobody will show up to either restaurant). You can still run an EMT service RP on either map, just getting from point A to point B will be slightly different. Rave party RP, same thing different place. Camping RP, same thing different place. Crime scene RP, same thing different place. Starting to understand?

It's all the same: you still set up the same thing with the same results, different surroundings doesn't change a thing. A map doesn't change a thing. You're foolish to think otherwise; we need to add more things to do, not change the setting for the 5th or 6th time, because that's clearly not working. LL has been on a slow and steady downward spiral because you and many others keep preaching the same, stupid narrative. Changing the map won't change anything, wake up and realize this.

Not sure why you're so upset that someone is disagreeing with you. The map is one of the most important things on a server. Content is fantastic, yes. Nobody will disagree to that.
 
Content is difficult, time consuming and expensive to make. A map change has drastic affects on a server and costs little to nothing, if you'd take a look at the Florida server you'll see to that.

While it is a US based server and we have little US community, nobody wants to play on it because it's a garbage map, if you changed it to anything but a strange and obscure map that nobody has ever heard of the likelihood of developing a player-base on the US server is fairly decent. Important map factors weigh into the success of an enjoyable experience, including facilities, main street accessibility and size, residential, etc. The thing is, True North is stupidly massive and the likelihood of interactions if minimal. 

Take a breather and calm down, @theo.  this is a thread for serious discussion and not for hurling insults at people you don't agree with.

[Gmans DAD]

we just need more stuff to do

[Jen]

Is the map important, yes for passiverp and even for aggressive to.

But, content is something that will hopefully improve with MESKA, as I'm assuming that contraband from previous suggestions will become harder to do and maybe even become like meth with physical elements. However, I'm really not sure how this will be carried out.

Mining by looking at what fishing did I'm assuming different levels of pickaxes and skills etc. But again this could be different I generally have no idea.

Cooking will hopefully be more interactive again from previous suggestions and a poll a long time ago stating that people wanted things to be more interactive like the meth system rather than the current contraband system. 

So hhopefullythatwill happen, again I have no idea how this will be carried out this is all me making assumptions so don't quote me on anything.


So by these things being added, imo it would help passive to by having more interactive elements to cook things etc. Hell maybe even an activity where players can drive trucks, pickup goods and deliver them to stores, so that they can be used, removing the interaction from F1 and giving it to the player base.


I'm really hoping MESKA brings something new and reduces some of the basing constantly as currently it's pretty easy to do and has very little risk and a medium reward. 

Remember, the team of devs is limited and only having 2 contributors, none of which have 9-5 jobs at LL means that development happens out of their free time and as we're all aware life comes before games or at least should do.

Maps can be important but, takes ages to finalise the map and a lot of work from the team to make it happen. This can be seen on NYE (New Year's Eve) with the 3 maps being setup for the trial weeks. It isn't as easy as, oh here's a new map. Took us as a team combined over/near (can't remember of the top of my head) 100 hours. Can a new map be produced? Sure, but imo the large majority of it being setup should be administrators and leaving Devs to concentrate on content and checking the map. I'm more than happy to have a little team going and doing this if it's what the majority of the community wants and will assist in roleplay and won't be another one of these, we can win situation which it still will be as not everyone will like the map. Imo, it's best to have one map and stick with it going forward and add to it and arguably take steps back from changing the map.

Hopefully having a reward from rping, increasing of levels and money and the fact players with a set level will be able to produce different things will cause people to spend time in these roles and develop the skills and sell them, creating more rp than there is current and having the player base heavily reliant on each other. As people will say there shouldn't be an incentive to rp, people should already be rping. Valid point but, if limited rp is happening then that's an issue. 


Again, please don't quote me for what I've said as coming up, I'm guessing from the suggestions and what is currently in place what maybe coming up in the future.

[Vinic]

-snip, snip-

Don't even try to argue for PassiveRP when that shit has been dead for years now. LL has been banking on the one, simple content loop as I have mentioned before: shoot cops, base, farm weed, etc. and it should be very clear to everyone *that is not working*. The player count is dropping, people are losing interest, and we're not doing anything right to fix this.

You seem to be missing my point over and over again: a passive RP isn't changed in any major way by a map change. You can still set up a restaurant on an Evo map the same way you could on TrueNorth (problem is that nobody will show up to either restaurant). You can still run an EMT service RP on either map, just getting from point A to point B will be slightly different. Rave party RP, same thing different place. Camping RP, same thing different place. Crime scene RP, same thing different place. Starting to understand?

It's all the same: you still set up the same thing with the same results, different surroundings doesn't change a thing. A map doesn't change a thing. You're foolish to think otherwise; we need to add more things to do, not change the setting for the 5th or 6th time, because that's clearly not working. LL has been on a slow and steady downward spiral because you and many others keep preaching the same, stupid narrative. Changing the map won't change anything, wake up and realize this.

Not sure why you're so upset that someone is disagreeing with you. The map is one of the most important things on a server. Content is fantastic, yes. Nobody will disagree to that.
 
Content is difficult, time consuming and expensive to make. A map change has drastic affects on a server and costs little to nothing, if you'd take a look at the Florida server you'll see to that.

While it is a US based server and we have little US community, nobody wants to play on it because it's a garbage map, if you changed it to anything but a strange and obscure map that nobody has ever heard of the likelihood of developing a player-base on the US server is fairly decent. Important map factors weigh into the success of an enjoyable experience, including facilities, main street accessibility and size, residential, etc. The thing is, True North is stupidly massive and the likelihood of interactions if minimal. 

Take a breather and calm down, @theo.  this is a thread for serious discussion and not for hurling insults at people you don't agree with.

The map is important, but how many times do we have to change it before people realize that it's not the root of the problem? Rockford, v4b1, v5p, TrueNorth, and I think one other map (?). These are all maps we have tried and nothing has changed. 

Time and time again do we get the community complaining about being bored, going the same places and doing the same things. So our solution to this has been to repackage the same product over and over again with a new map. We have the graphs and data here right now to show that we are slowly dying. You cannot deny that now; and if you don't, you cannot hope to keep trying the same thing over and over hoping for something to change. 

We have become outdated, left behind. Gmod numbers have stayed rather steady, so one cannot make the argument that our numbers are droppimg because the game overall isn't doing well. We are dropping because there are countless servers out there doimg what we do, Gmod RP, far better than us.

That is why I'm here ranting to all of you. It's time for us to break the chain, get out of the rutt we're in, and start taking action. We left FearlessRP to be able to produce more content and be as successful as we can truly be. FearlessRP is now far more successful and has more content than us. Let's begin taking action to put our once great community back on track. 

Hire move devs, produce more content, fill our map with things to do. Do this and I can guarantee you results. We can do it; I know we can because we've done it before. We took that leap of faith to create LL, now it's time to take another and push forward to the future.

[Aryen]

-Snipperino-

I'm going to say 2 thing here.
1) Map does affect how passive RP works and plays out, something that GTA V doesn't have.
2) Do you mind not having a tantrum and insulting me?

Don't even try to argue for PassiveRP when that shit has been dead for years now. LL has been banking on the one, simple content loop as I have mentioned before: shoot cops, base, farm weed, etc. and it should be very clear to everyone *that is not working*. The player count is dropping, people are losing interest, and we're not doing anything right to fix this.

You seem to be missing my point over and over again: a passive RP isn't changed in any major way by a map change. You can still set up a restaurant on an Evo map the same way you could on TrueNorth (problem is that nobody will show up to either restaurant). You can still run an EMT service RP on either map, just getting from point A to point B will be slightly different. Rave party RP, same thing different place. Camping RP, same thing different place. Crime scene RP, same thing different place. Starting to understand?

It's all the same: you still set up the same thing with the same results, different surroundings doesn't change a thing. A map doesn't change a thing. You're foolish to think otherwise; we need to add more things to do, not change the setting for the 5th or 6th time, because that's clearly not working. LL has been on a slow and steady downward spiral because you and many others keep preaching the same, stupid narrative. Changing the map won't change anything, wake up and realize this.

I agree with some of the things you said, however the map does make a difference. For a playerbase this low, and on this huge map, most people can easily find a hidden place and contrawhore there for hours, and if most of the people playing do this, there will be little to no interaction, meaning no attention given to passiverps. If there was a map change to let's say V2, for a playerbase this low, it would be much harder to just sit in a building for hours contrawhoring since you'd get caught over and over again. This would result in the player trying out something else, such as passiverps. If the player is interested in only making money and basing, on a small map, if it got too difficult for them to keep basing by themselves, they'd start basing with other players, which would eventually turn into a group or gang which increases player interaction. This is much harder to happened on a map this big, if someone gets raided, they'll eventually find another hidden place to sit for hours in contrawhoring.

Yes, new content is interesting and will keep players interested. However it's more about what you do on the server, and what you're entertained by. Even though I'm not satisfied with the current map, I try to make the most of it with the people who are actually willing to roleplay and interact.