[Jokhah]

@BlackDog 

We've talked about this, and I agree with some of the logic and the overall outcome of what you are discussing.

We also both agree that general users cannot fix that problem.

As users we should be doing our best to make that shit not okay.  Right now it's not popular to speak out about how we as users need to work harder to make this place better.  If we were all on point with ourselves and working together to keep this shit from being toxic, apply ourselves to learn something more to contribute, then it'll be a better place.

Played on some 1942RP servers, where the staff are generally selected by paying money and are abusive.  The place was still fun if the general players kept things on the level on their end.

In the military we have a saying.  Solve the problem at the lowest level.  Since the only thing below user is banned, and they can't post nor contribute, we should work on what we can work on.  The "why bother" aspect applies both ways.  With us being the majority, and us being toxic, why should they bother to baby sit us and keep us safe from the minges?

I've heard about troubles on their level, but that isn't what this is about.



P.S. And offtopic to the above:  When I refer to admins as baby sitters, I am not implying any disrespect to them.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with baby sitters, they take care of children and that is noble.  What you should really think about is about how old you are, then ask yourself if you really need a baby sitter to take care of you?  In some cases, like Mass RDM, Prop lagging, stuff of that nature, of course you will likely need an admin because they won't stop.  In other cases where you are calling an admin because someone called you a bitch, where you were talking smack anyway, you don't need a baby sitter, you need to just stop being petty.

Additionally, I have nothing but respect for Blackdog and people like him who actually stood up and fought hard.  I just wish I could get all of you, and the rest of us, to stand up together, instead of standing as our respective groups or individual selves.  If we all work together, sky is the limit.  I promise.

P.S.2: Reader, consider this.  If everyone in the community, the users, supported something (a rule change, a suggestion, anything non staff position / otherwise restricted from) it would happen.  There logically isn't any reason it wouldn't.  Similarly, if everyone left, the place would die.  Now to me, the former is the better of the two options.

I'm not asking to be friends.  I'm not asking you to put up a ton of effort.  I'm asking you to do at least one of these two things.  Either, Simply work on being decent towards others, or find some way you can contribute to the actual growth of the community (coding, modelling, making videos, making guides that show how to do things or explain advanced roleplay situations that might get someone into trouble, helping find and report bugs).  Some people already do this, but to beat that dead horse one more time, many do not.  What is worse is that the loudest and most easily noticed people, are the toxic ones, and it's rare to see anyone even attempt to do anything about it from our end.

Our eyes have been blind to the issue long enough.  Now what we hate is everywhere and the first instinct is to flee?  This is when we are supposed to rise and take back what we've allowed to be over run.  Join me, in whatever way you can, in making this place great again.  It's as simple as not typing "Go fuck yourself, you stupid cunt, I'll cuck your mom, Innit" to someone, just one less time a day.

Surely that isn't too much to ask.

[Apex]

@Jokhah 

The issue isn't the community, the issue is the staff team that are reluctant to either allow someone to succeed their position or to be active within it themselves. 

I know a few people on the staff team are losing motivation and want to see change but don't have the energy to do it, which is a shame.

As much as I dislike @Doctor Internet he's pretty much the only one keeping LL above water right now with the occasional good update, he can't win this battle on his own unfortunately. 

So solving the problem at "the lowest level" is silly, because the players aren't the lowest level. The thing that needs to be fixed are the rules, administration guidelines, and old staff members hanging on for no apparent reason other than to have a staff rank.

[Taylor]

@Jokhah 

The issue isn't the community, the issue is the staff team that are reluctant to either allow someone to succeed their position or to be active within it themselves. 

I know a few people on the staff team are losing motivation and want to see change but don't have the energy to do it, which is a shame.

As much as I dislike @Doctor Internet he's pretty much the only one keeping LL above water right now with the occasional good update, he can't win this battle on his own unfortunately. 

So solving the problem at "the lowest level" is silly, because the players aren't the lowest level. The thing that needs to be fixed are the rules, administration guidelines, and old staff members hanging on for no apparent reason other than to have a staff rank.

Actually no, the community are just as much of the issue as the staff: 

Toxic Community -> Demotivated Staff -> Staff Inactivity -> Toxic Community etc. It’s an endless cycle, and it’s the community that needs to step up.

[Apex]

@Jokhah 

The issue isn't the community, the issue is the staff team that are reluctant to either allow someone to succeed their position or to be active within it themselves. 

I know a few people on the staff team are losing motivation and want to see change but don't have the energy to do it, which is a shame.

As much as I dislike @Doctor Internet he's pretty much the only one keeping LL above water right now with the occasional good update, he can't win this battle on his own unfortunately. 

So solving the problem at "the lowest level" is silly, because the players aren't the lowest level. The thing that needs to be fixed are the rules, administration guidelines, and old staff members hanging on for no apparent reason other than to have a staff rank.

Actually no, the community are just as much of the issue as the staff: 

Toxic Community -> Demotivated Staff -> Staff Inactivity -> Toxic Community etc. It’s an endless cycle, and it’s the community that needs to step up.

"and it’s the community that needs to step up." Good luck with that. A toxic community is a symptom, not a illness.

[Taylor]

@Jokhah 

The issue isn't the community, the issue is the staff team that are reluctant to either allow someone to succeed their position or to be active within it themselves. 

I know a few people on the staff team are losing motivation and want to see change but don't have the energy to do it, which is a shame.

As much as I dislike @Doctor Internet he's pretty much the only one keeping LL above water right now with the occasional good update, he can't win this battle on his own unfortunately. 

So solving the problem at "the lowest level" is silly, because the players aren't the lowest level. The thing that needs to be fixed are the rules, administration guidelines, and old staff members hanging on for no apparent reason other than to have a staff rank.

Actually no, the community are just as much of the issue as the staff: 

Toxic Community -> Demotivated Staff -> Staff Inactivity -> Toxic Community etc. It’s an endless cycle, and it’s the community that needs to step up.

"and it’s the community that needs to step up." Good luck with that. A toxic community is a symptom, not a illness.

This is my point exactly, some of the community don't have the maturity to realise THEY are problem and they need to work WITH the staff team, not against them.

[Jokhah]

Some people would rather make excuses then to accept any responsibility for their actions.  Keep blaming the staff for all the problems.  Keep saying that the people telling you to look in the mirror are the problem.  You're only fooling yourself.  Toxic behavior isn't a side effect, its a conscious decision which lies solely on the one doing it.  The logic of it being a side effect would be like saying "I rioted because the police are mean, the damage is their fault."  Try holding that up in court.

[BlackDog]

If a water treatment plant begins to stop working, do i blame the water for becoming contaminated or does the blame fall to those who allowed it to fall apart in the first place?

[Doctor Internet]

If a water treatment plant begins to stop working, do i blame the water for becoming contaminated or does the blame fall to those who allowed it to fall apart in the first place?

It depends. Does the water in this situation have the capacity to make its own decisions about how contaminated it is?

[BlackDog]

It does, but the fact remains: Someone let it get to that point in the first place without doing what needed to be done to prevent it, and in the end it lies with those same people, not the water, to correct the problem before it gets worse.

[Jokhah]

I'm with Internet on the logic.

Here is another way to look at it.  This one isn't abstract, its what's actually happening here and now.


"We can't fix the problems with the staff, so we shouldn't fix the problems with ourselves."

I wish the military held the logic of this community.  At least then we'd all speak the same language.


I have nothing else to say.  If you find yourself still "debating" at this point, where the logic is that simple, you don't want to solve anything.  It's obvious because you are so unwilling to change yourself for the better that you'd rather complain and blame others.  Staff don't make players act the way they do.  Facts.

Change for the better, or perpetuate your broken and pathetic cycle of blaming others for what YOU do.  In the real world, it won't pan out for you.  "Oh I didn't do my work because bob over there in management didn't do his job one time a few weeks ago."

Regardless of yalls lil word play bullshit, you are the only one responsible for what you do at the end of the day.  If being decent is too much, by all means join the band wagon and jump ship to another community.  Go be toxic there.

[Apex]

Actually no, the community are just as much of the issue as the staff: 

Toxic Community -> Demotivated Staff -> Staff Inactivity -> Toxic Community etc. It’s an endless cycle, and it’s the community that needs to step up.

"and it’s the community that needs to step up." Good luck with that. A toxic community is a symptom, not a illness.

This is my point exactly, some of the community don't have the maturity to realise THEY are problem and they need to work WITH the staff team, not against them.

You didn't understand, a toxic community (As blackdog said) is the byproduct of a bad staff team and poor rules.

[Welker]

I have nothing else to say.  If you find yourself still "debating" at this point, where the logic is that simple, you don't want to solve anything.  It's obvious because you are so unwilling to change yourself for the better that you'd rather complain and blame others.  Staff don't make players act the way they do.  Facts.

If you're unwilling to discuss and debate an issue then you really are part of the problem. Because that is what a community is supposed to be, a collective of opinions not just yours.

Not saying you've wrong, but in this entire thread you're been extremely arrogant to anyone who happens to not agree completely with what you say. You claimed on discord that everyone who disagreed with you is 'triggered'. It's just quite hypocritical, really. Practice what you preach.

TL:DR
Limelight has problems in the community, staff and everything in between. Blaming any one group is not going to do anything but create more division.

[Doctor Internet]

"and it’s the community that needs to step up." Good luck with that. A toxic community is a symptom, not a illness.

This is my point exactly, some of the community don't have the maturity to realise THEY are problem and they need to work WITH the staff team, not against them.

You didn't understand, a toxic community (As blackdog said) is the byproduct of a bad staff team and poor rules.

From what I can tell, both issues feed into each-other. A negative community will lead to a demotivated team. A demotivated team will lead to a toxic community. We can't simply say "the community are cunts" or "the staff are all fuckheads", it's a more nuanced situation, as @Welker points out.

Honestly, at times on the forums, it is hard to participate in constructive conversations, when quite a few people will respond with (essentially) "LL is shit" for anything, be it updates, announcements, leavers, etc.

That being said, staff not being on, or being less strict in their rule enforcement has led to issues, though the first issue is being resolved.

[Taylor]

This is my point exactly, some of the community don't have the maturity to realise THEY are problem and they need to work WITH the staff team, not against them.

You didn't understand, a toxic community (As blackdog said) is the byproduct of a bad staff team and poor rules.

From what I can tell, both issues feed into each-other. A negative community will lead to a demotivated team. A demotivated team will lead to a toxic community. We can't simply say "the community are cunts" or "the staff are all fuckheads", it's a more nuanced situation, as @Welker points out.

Honestly, at times on the forums, it is hard to participate in constructive conversations, when quite a few people will respond with (essentially) "LL is shit" for anything, be it updates, announcements, leavers, etc.

That being said, staff not being on, or being less strict in their rule enforcement has led to issues, though the first issue is being resolved.

What is being done to solve this issues? This is what I ranted about. You can say to us you’re fixing shit but you never say what it is you’re doing

[pufitee]

This is my point exactly, some of the community don't have the maturity to realise THEY are problem and they need to work WITH the staff team, not against them.

You didn't understand, a toxic community (As blackdog said) is the byproduct of a bad staff team and poor rules.

From what I can tell, both issues feed into each-other. A negative community will lead to a demotivated team. A demotivated team will lead to a toxic community. We can't simply say "the community are cunts" or "the staff are all fuckheads", it's a more nuanced situation, as @Welker points out.

Honestly, at times on the forums, it is hard to participate in constructive conversations, when quite a few people will respond with (essentially) "LL is shit" for anything, be it updates, announcements, leavers, etc.

That being said, staff not being on, or being less strict in their rule enforcement has led to issues, though the first issue is being resolved.

excuse me is this player disrespect