(Mar 6, 2018, 06:31 PM)IVNT Wrote: [ -> ] (Mar 6, 2018, 01:13 AM)The Rock Wrote: [ -> ]-snip-
maturity? oh god take a look at this video from last night. You say we're not mature, check out the ACTUAL staff members on the server.
-snip-
You came into a private TS channel, with a group of friends who were having a joke? I see you've ignored context
again.
(Mar 6, 2018, 06:34 PM)Doctor Internet Wrote: [ -> ] (Mar 6, 2018, 06:31 PM)IVNT Wrote: [ -> ] (Mar 6, 2018, 01:13 AM)The Rock Wrote: [ -> ]-snip-
maturity? oh god take a look at this video from last night. You say we're not mature, check out the ACTUAL staff members on the server.
-snip-
You came into a private TS channel, with a group of friends who were having a joke? I see you've ignored context again.
hm? having a joke about a serious topic, and purposely directing it towards us. Then you tell me off when I call you '40 year old virgins' hm, dw its a private TS
(Mar 6, 2018, 06:36 PM)IVNT Wrote: [ -> ] (Mar 6, 2018, 06:34 PM)Doctor Internet Wrote: [ -> ] (Mar 6, 2018, 06:31 PM)IVNT Wrote: [ -> ]maturity? oh god take a look at this video from last night. You say we're not mature, check out the ACTUAL staff members on the server.
-snip-
You came into a private TS channel, with a group of friends who were having a joke? I see you've ignored context again.
hm? having a joke about a serious topic, and purposely directing it towards us. Then you tell me off when I call you '40 year old virgins' hm, dw its a private TS
Do you even know Doctor? To assume such thing? If you came by a group channel to only do jokes and to mess with othera for pure fun or whatever only shows lack of mature
As pointed out a thousand times by this point, there will always be bias. This can only be removed if we remove the human element from server-administration. As we unfortunately at this time do not have access to Elon Musk's secret AI development, we're left with having humans serving as staff-members. Humans are a good work-force but they have their quirks. They can get bored, tired, hungry, annoyed, angry or irrational. They are a buggy bunch of hardware, they can do a really good job.
Yeah, staff might have issues. Yeah, there's bias, but I personally think that our staff-team is really good. We're far from perfect and there's a lot of improvement that can be made, but the staff is still a pretty good bunch. Countless hours have been put in for the benefit of the community, not for their benefit. That's something that we can't forget.
As for community bias, and staff-members being close friends with some people is only natural. We're social, and it's a community because we all connect together (some better than others though). I can't ban the staff from having friends, nor can I sit on top of their shoulders everytime they're evaluating a situation that one of their friends might be involved in. I have to trust them to remain as unbiased as possible, and that they'll do the job properly. Sometimes, the quality of this can vary. Proving that a staff-member in question has in fact acted with bias is very hard to prove. The staff deal with a lot of people every day, and sometimes friends of the staff-member will be involved.
If the staff-member shows leniency or "mildness" in a situation where his friend is involved, then it's hard to determine if this was done because of the friend being involved, if the situation was messy and chaotic, or if the rules are not defined properly. There can be many reasons for a staff-member to show leniency, and not every situation is necessarily contaminated by bias. One of my tasks is to investigate cases where this might be a possibility, and it's a difficult thing. I can't act on my feelings, I have to act on evidence. If I am to demote someone for whatever reason, then I need to be able to present a valid and thoroughly investigated case showing that the staff-member in question did, in fact, go against the guidelines or rules. There have been several situations where I've been confident that a bias has contaminated a situation, without being able to act on it as a fact. If an SA-HR acts purely on only his personal opinion without facts or evidence, then the SA-HR will break all trust that he has with the team and/or the community, and the credibility of the position will be deteriorated.
Another thing that's been pointed out that staff are not the only ones who might be biased. The same can be said for players.
Admin X and Y might act and do the same, but players who are already negative towards Admin X will yell and criticize to their heart's content, while not raising a brow if Admin Y does it. An Admins actions and behavior is always under scrutiny, and it doesn't help if you have a bunch of people who will yell for the smallest thing.
We sometimes work in a very hostile and toxic environment, and it gets tiring quickly. We do what's right, not necessarily what's popular and that will turn some players against us. Sometimes, we mess up though, and we try to correct it to the best of our capability. Some players are quite hostile towards any form of authority, and if they show a hostile attitude towards us, then they can't expect us to treat them like our best-friends. Treat the staff with respect, and I'm 100% confident that you'll get a more respectful treatment back than if you were to treat us with disrespect, slander and toxic memes. Don't kiss our asses, don't be a brown-nose, but treat us like you want to be treated, and we'll do our best to return the favour.
This being said, everyone are able to contact myself or if they have any complaints or evidence that they want to hand us. We will look into it to the best of our capability, but it helps if we get evidence and proper detail instead of "ADMIN X ABUSED ME IM DONE. FUCKING DEMOTE HIM AND FIX THIS NOW". Claims are claims, and the more evidence we're given the better.
I often hear that we never deal with staff and community-problems, but Overlewd and I sit in way too many meetings, way too many chats, digging through way too many logs and having way too many discussions for this to be true. We try to be as transparent as we can, but it's quite difficult when it comes to us dealing with a staff-member internally. The last thing we need is a public witch-hunt, more memes and people making fun of the staff-member in question because they were confronted and punished by us. The less interference, the easier it is for us to keep it clean and drama-free.
We do not sit on our thumbs not doing anything about complaints and reports however.
I'm sure there are many staff- and ex-staffmembers who can attest to me being a strict no-fun asshole-A in these serious chats. Those chats aren't fun, but they happen, and it's not like I say "woooopseee, you made yet another booboo, oh well, don't do that next time". I keep notes of all staff-confrontation, so I always have an overview and notes to refer to when a staff-member has gotten enough chances.
HR speaks with staff-members daily about internal issues, concerns and such, and we're constantly trying to improve and work out the issues.
Quick thoughts about the following:
Admins spawning several cars in to sell them:
As pointed out already, there isn't a lot of difference between doing this and spawning in entities or props, besides the fact that the vehicles are naturally interactable. This doesn't really give a staff-member an unfair advantage, it really just makes things simpler. This is not abuse of power as I see it.
As long as this power is used to benefit passiveRP, and not aggressiveRP then I have no issues with it.
Preventing staff-members from being in clans to avoid bias:
This has been under consideration, and it's been a tempting fix for bias. Staff have always been biased when clans are involved, and they always will. No clan is really an exception here. FUMUKU, SAA, Cerberus, Aeris, Lionscrest... You name it. If a staff-member is involved then there's a big chance that bias will be an issue at one point in time.
Removing staff-members from clans would be a quick fix, but it would have consequences. Staff would be demotivated, demoralized, and they'd feel like they've been dealt with like a common minge. I know this because I would have felt this way. For many years, being in SAA was really the only thing that kept me around on FL. Clans was the only thing I actually found to be interesting ingame, and I don't blame others for feeling the same. If I take away a big motivator for old and experienced staff-members to stay around, then they'd drop like flies. We'd be able to replace them with other staff-members, sure; but they'd soon also grow tired and they'd have to be replaced.
Players are meant to have fun, but also Admins. If the admin-role was only about administrating then it'd be the shittiest position ever. Working for free without reward, appreciation or privileges.
No work and play makes Jack a dull boy
This post will also be posted in the "Admin Bias" thread.
If we were to note down all the complaints an admin gets vs compliments, then I think you guys would be surprised about how un-appreciated it is to be a staff-member. #SaveAnAdminGiveACompliment
*cough* Not to even mention how unrewarding it is to be a dev. They bury themselves in code for hours upon hours, and only get contacted about their work when something messes up. #SaveADevGiveAThanks
And Teachers? Jesus hell, they take so much work-load of our hands by answering the tedious questions, teaching players how to play this god-awful game that GMOD is. I'm honestly somewhat surprised that a teacher hasn't eaten a bullet out of frustration from dealing with some of you. #SaveATeacherThankThemForTheirHelp
I've never myself encountered any form of biasism in the community nor have I encountered evidence to support the existence of biasisim in the community.
I haven't noticed much of this being an issue aside from a few "#FUMUKUBIAS" tags here and there. I am honestly shocked that this seems to be a big problem and that alot of people seem upset. I am not saying that these people are wrong, im just surprised as this sorta popped out of nowhere.
There will always be biased yes but that's not something that's acceptable, just because it is a thing that is natural to the humen being doesn't mean it is ok to use that as an accuse and disregard other people because they're not your friends.
Am I biased? to some extent you can probably say so but in when I was an admin, was I biased? I'd personally say No, I play CS:GO with the people who posted abuse threads on me, I disagreed with my best friend admins like and I play PUBG and role-play and mess around with the people I ban, I don't have a small group of people who kissed ass to me long enough for them to be my "friends" I'm not that kind of person and I think most people know that.
But when there's a clan and they have a majority of the most active player-base and their players asking their admins for rules and permissions then how can it not be biased? If said players asked one of their said admins about a rule that doesn't exsist and the admin allows the rule without talking to the whole team about it nor discussing it with SAs or announcing it to the community, just so his friends can RP out a situation, then yes that is biased. You'd be too blind if you can't tell that it is biased, has that happened? yes it has.
So to comeback on "there's always biased" yes there is but it's something I personally view as a weakness, if you're in a position of authority within this community and you favor your friends over the community itself, then it's not just biased behavoir, you're just afraid that you'll lose this group of friends because you said no to them or didn't allow them to do what they wanted. If you can't handle saying no to your friends or not allowing them to do something that isn't in the rules, then you're word as an admin is weak and you yourself are weak as well, so consider leaving the community because you're only causing harm to it.
Or you learn to deal with biasness and live with it, happens everywhere, in politics, work, school and gMod community’s. Deal with it.
(Mar 8, 2018, 10:42 AM)Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]There will always be biased yes but that's not something that's acceptable, just because it is a thing that is natural to the humen being doesn't mean it is ok to use that as an accuse and disregard other people because they're not your friends.
We have to differentiate bias here. Everyone is biased by the events they go through. Someone who got gassed in WWII is more likely to be against chemical weapons than a weapons chemist.
(Mar 8, 2018, 10:42 AM)Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]Am I biased? to some extent you can probably say so but in when I was an admin, was I biased? I'd personally say No, I play CS:GO with the people who posted abuse threads on me, I disagreed with my best friend admins like Daley and "Nacreas" "Bambo" I play PUBG and role-play and mess around with the people I ban,
(Mar 8, 2018, 10:42 AM)Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]I don't have a small group of people who kissed ass to me long enough for them to be my "friends" I'm not that kind of person and I think most people know that.
People kissing your ass doesn't make them a friend, that makes them an ass-kisser. People being friends makes them a friend.
(Mar 8, 2018, 10:42 AM)Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]But when there's a clan and they have a majority of the most active player-base and their players asking their admins for rules and permissions then how can it not be biased?
Because people can be objective. It's not impossible.
(Mar 8, 2018, 10:42 AM)Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]If said players asked one of their said admins about a rule that doesn't exsist and the admin allows the rule without talking to the whole team about it nor discussing it with SAs or announcing it to the community, just so his friends can RP out a situation, then yes that is biased. You'd be too blind if you can't tell that it is biased, has that happened? yes it has.
Yes it has when? I'd like some examples, please.
(Mar 8, 2018, 10:42 AM)Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]So to comeback on "there's always biased" yes there is but it's something I personally view as a weakness, if you're in a position of authority within this community and you favor your friends over the community itself, then it's not just biased behavoir, you're just afraid that you'll lose this group of friends because you said no to them or didn't allow them to do what they wanted.
No, it's not. Being biased because of your life experience is different to being biased because of your friends. As an example for myself, I tend to often say "no" to my friends. I still have friends, because my friends like me for my personality, not because I wield power like a mighty sword. There's a small difference there. Don't forget also, the entire team have oversight of the rest of the team, plus HR oversees the entire team. If you do shit like that, you
will be called out on it, as you well know.
(Mar 8, 2018, 10:42 AM)Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]If you can't handle saying no to your friends or not allowing them to do something that isn't in the rules, then you're word as an admin is weak and you yourself are weak as well, so consider leaving the community because you're only causing harm to it.
I recall a quote similar to this, where the person who posted it ended up being wrong. It didn't go well then, I doubt it will go well this time.
(Mar 8, 2018, 06:30 PM)Doctor Internet Wrote: [ -> ] (Mar 8, 2018, 10:42 AM)Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]There will always be biased yes but that's not something that's acceptable, just because it is a thing that is natural to the humen being doesn't mean it is ok to use that as an accuse and disregard other people because they're not your friends.
We have to differentiate bias here. Everyone is biased by the events they go through. Someone who got gassed in WWII is more likely to be against chemical weapons than a weapons chemist.
(Mar 8, 2018, 10:42 AM)Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]Am I biased? to some extent you can probably say so but in when I was an admin, was I biased? I'd personally say No, I play CS:GO with the people who posted abuse threads on me, I disagreed with my best friend admins like Daley and "Nacreas" "Bambo" I play PUBG and role-play and mess around with the people I ban,
(Mar 8, 2018, 10:42 AM)Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]I don't have a small group of people who kissed ass to me long enough for them to be my "friends" I'm not that kind of person and I think most people know that.
People kissing your ass doesn't make them a friend, that makes them an ass-kisser. People being friends makes them a friend.
(Mar 8, 2018, 10:42 AM)Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]But when there's a clan and they have a majority of the most active player-base and their players asking their admins for rules and permissions then how can it not be biased?
Because people can be objective. It's not impossible.
(Mar 8, 2018, 10:42 AM)Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]If said players asked one of their said admins about a rule that doesn't exsist and the admin allows the rule without talking to the whole team about it nor discussing it with SAs or announcing it to the community, just so his friends can RP out a situation, then yes that is biased. You'd be too blind if you can't tell that it is biased, has that happened? yes it has.
Yes it has when? I'd like some examples, please.
(Mar 8, 2018, 10:42 AM)Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]So to comeback on "there's always biased" yes there is but it's something I personally view as a weakness, if you're in a position of authority within this community and you favor your friends over the community itself, then it's not just biased behavoir, you're just afraid that you'll lose this group of friends because you said no to them or didn't allow them to do what they wanted.
No, it's not. Being biased because of your life experience is different to being biased because of your friends. As an example for myself, I tend to often say "no" to my friends. I still have friends, because my friends like me for my personality, not because I wield power like a mighty sword. There's a small difference there. Don't forget also, the entire team have oversight of the rest of the team, plus HR oversees the entire team. If you do shit like that, you will be called out on it, as you well know.
(Mar 8, 2018, 10:42 AM)Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]If you can't handle saying no to your friends or not allowing them to do something that isn't in the rules, then you're word as an admin is weak and you yourself are weak as well, so consider leaving the community because you're only causing harm to it.
I recall a quote similar to this, where the person who posted it ended up being wrong. It didn't go well then, I doubt it will go well this time.
Negative, negative and negative. You just spent your time using everything Rocket said and just going against that, finding a way.
In his resignation, he mentioned a group of people.
Quote:some staff certian group of LL staff members
There's always that one group who people who like your posts and agree with your community biastness.
Can you prove he’s being bias and not subjective to Rocket’s argument? I fail to see how his friends liking his post has anything to do with his argument seeing as he cannot predict that.
For instance, Quest likes your posts. Does that make your opinion bias to favor a party he represents?
(Mar 8, 2018, 07:59 PM)IVNT Wrote: [ -> ] (Mar 8, 2018, 07:53 PM)Gungranny Wrote: [ -> ]
Can you prove he’s being bias and not subjective to Rocket’s argument? I fail to see how his friends liking his post has anything to do with his argument seeing as he cannot predict that.
For instance, Quest likes your posts. Does that make your opinion bias to favor a party he represents?
u what?
I believe Gungranny is referring to:
IVNT Wrote:There's always that one group who people who like your posts and agree with your community biastness.
In which he is asking if Quest liking your posts, is doing what you called out in the quote above.
(Mar 8, 2018, 07:53 PM)Gungranny Wrote: [ -> ]
Can you prove he’s being bias and not subjective to Rocket’s argument? I fail to see how his friends liking his post has anything to do with his argument seeing as he cannot predict that.
For instance, Quest likes your posts. Does that make your opinion bias to favor a party he represents?
I don't like every post :P
(Mar 8, 2018, 10:42 AM)Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]There will always be biased yes but that's not something that's acceptable, just because it is a thing that is natural to the humen being doesn't mean it is ok to use that as an accuse and disregard other people because they're not your friends.
Am I biased? to some extent you can probably say so but in when I was an admin, was I biased? I'd personally say No, I play CS:GO with the people who posted abuse threads on me, I disagreed with my best friend admins like and I play PUBG and role-play and mess around with the people I ban, I don't have a small group of people who kissed ass to me long enough for them to be my "friends" I'm not that kind of person and I think most people know that.
But when there's a clan and they have a majority of the most active player-base and their players asking their admins for rules and permissions then how can it not be biased? If said players asked one of their said admins about a rule that doesn't exsist and the admin allows the rule without talking to the whole team about it nor discussing it with SAs or announcing it to the community, just so his friends can RP out a situation, then yes that is biased. You'd be too blind if you can't tell that it is biased, has that happened? yes it has.
So to comeback on "there's always biased" yes there is but it's something I personally view as a weakness, if you're in a position of authority within this community and you favor your friends over the community itself, then it's not just biased behavoir, you're just afraid that you'll lose this group of friends because you said no to them or didn't allow them to do what they wanted. If you can't handle saying no to your friends or not allowing them to do something that isn't in the rules, then you're word as an admin is weak and you yourself are weak as well, so consider leaving the community because you're only causing harm to it.
Which is why you were one of the very few admins truly deserving of that position
oh you want examples of bending rules for bias look for that AA thread on BlackDog, ignoring rules purely to benefit him and the people he was RPing with
![[Image: 8b479435730a8064ecd426d9c808a5fd.png]](https://i.gyazo.com/8b479435730a8064ecd426d9c808a5fd.png)