[Mr.Sir]

Some great feedback so far, but I still really need some help with this.

What issues are we trying to solve?

To break this down a bit, from what I can see, there are three main issues (issues in the biggest sense of the word, since one is an IC issue more than an OOC issue) with the current unwhitelisted PD, that I can see.

A lack of training, leading to dumbarsery. Cops firing over each-other, ramming each-other in pursuits, breaching procedures, issuing warrants to buy food, that sort of thing. Generally an IC issue, but bordering to OOC on occasion.

An excess of dickery. Quite a few people enjoy going police to be dicks. 15 minute arrests for jaywalking. Arrests for no reason, using corruption as an excuse. This is seperate from corruption in its severity. Sure, tasing someone for no reason during a stop is being a dick, but it has no effect on their longer term experience. Arresting them knocks 15 minutes out. Killing them gives 10 minutes of NLR. Somewhat IC, but mostly OOC. It has a much longer lasting effect on players than just the 15 minute arrest or death.

Finally, corruption, in its more minor forms. From @"GunGranny"'s beanbagging to accepting bribes to whatever else. Generally IC.

I can't think of any more, but again the question is this.
Which of these issues are we trying to solve with a whitelist?

What issues would this be aiming to solve?

I think you said it all. The biggest issue is the misuse of the position and the lack of training. I had an officer today who despite me telling him, “don’t go on the roof because they will execute the hostage” went up onto the roof when I was not looking and got the hostage killed, as well as himself and my other officer. I really struggle with keeping Officers in line because they don’t understand that if you are a Police Officer, you must follow orders and understand that this is not a set story gameplay, it’s role play. Your actions can lead the situation in millions of directions. 

I think that each police RP group/clan should be evaluated on training to be deemed ok to operate. Some Departments (for example the MCSO, NYPD and JCPD) have shown decently trained officers and don’t have to be evaluated as a Dep but the officers themselves should still be trained again.

Back in the days this was a unwritten rule for officers to follow the hostage takers commands during these situations.

[Doctor Internet]

So, some people don't want to effect the running of clans / groups, which is fair. For that, we wouldn't really want to handle corruption, since groups have their own internal ways of handling that, but more handling complete dumbasses and dicks.

Some people want a complete IC group, similar to the police groups / clans, others want a fully OOC solution.
Thanks for the feedback so far, anyone else?

[Montyfatcat]

I think having a way of handling IC corruption would still be a requirement, as right now "corruption" and "being a dick" are kind of synonymous in people's minds.

[Taylor]

So, some people don't want to effect the running of clans / groups, which is fair. For that, we wouldn't really want to handle corruption, since groups have their own internal ways of handling that, but more handling complete dumbasses and dicks.

Some people want a complete IC group, similar to the police groups / clans, others want a fully OOC solution.
Thanks for the feedback so far, anyone else?

If there's a set structure, similar to the many PD groups, then realistically everything could be handled ICly with the exception of the "Chief" who should be investigated and dealt with by staff.

[Doctor Internet]

So, some people don't want to effect the running of clans / groups, which is fair. For that, we wouldn't really want to handle corruption, since groups have their own internal ways of handling that, but more handling complete dumbasses and dicks.

Some people want a complete IC group, similar to the police groups / clans, others want a fully OOC solution.
Thanks for the feedback so far, anyone else?

If there's a set structure, similar to the many PD groups, then realistically everything could be handled ICly with the exception of the "Chief" who should be investigated and dealt with by staff.

But do we want people issued a long term punishment for a good corruption RP? I'd argue we shouldn't, and should insteAD be encouraging that if people can do it well, as Soviet could, as I've seen a couple of other times before (and issued REP for).

[Nudel]

Forcing an entire IC-solution on the players will lead to a massive limitation of RP. It also makes all the gov/police groups obsolete.

The system should definitely be entirely OOC (a player who was approved can simply join the police slot. The rest is handled IG).

[Duckie]

So, some people don't want to effect the running of clans / groups, which is fair. For that, we wouldn't really want to handle corruption, since groups have their own internal ways of handling that, but more handling complete dumbasses and dicks.

Some people want a complete IC group, similar to the police groups / clans, others want a fully OOC solution.
Thanks for the feedback so far, anyone else?

If there's a set structure, similar to the many PD groups, then realistically everything could be handled ICly with the exception of the "Chief" who should be investigated and dealt with by staff.

But do we want people issued a long term punishment for a good corruption RP? I'd argue we shouldn't, and should insteAD be encouraging that if people can do it well, as Soviet could, as I've seen a couple of other times before (and issued REP for).

The occasional corruption RP is ok but I’m seeing it constantly on the server now. It’s getting to be a norm. It’s not good.

[Duckie]

Some great feedback so far, but I still really need some help with this.


What issues would this be aiming to solve?

I think you said it all. The biggest issue is the misuse of the position and the lack of training. I had an officer today who despite me telling him, “don’t go on the roof because they will execute the hostage” went up onto the roof when I was not looking and got the hostage killed, as well as himself and my other officer. I really struggle with keeping Officers in line because they don’t understand that if you are a Police Officer, you must follow orders and understand that this is not a set story gameplay, it’s role play. Your actions can lead the situation in millions of directions. 

I think that each police RP group/clan should be evaluated on training to be deemed ok to operate. Some Departments (for example the MCSO, NYPD and JCPD) have shown decently trained officers and don’t have to be evaluated as a Dep but the officers themselves should still be trained again.

Back in the days this was a unwritten rule for officers to follow the hostage takers commands during these situations.

I guess some people don’t care about that rule anymore. However, it is common sense that you listen to the hostage taker to avoid any negative outcome but the people who are not part of a group/clan seem to have a hard time listening to commands by superiors. Maybe that’s because they don’t know who the superior/supervisor is? Maybe you should have a tag under your name when RPing as PD that has your rank? (For example, I am a Sergeant so maybe something like this: “Rank: Sergeant | Supervisor”)

[Doctor Internet]

I think you said it all. The biggest issue is the misuse of the position and the lack of training. I had an officer today who despite me telling him, “don’t go on the roof because they will execute the hostage” went up onto the roof when I was not looking and got the hostage killed, as well as himself and my other officer. I really struggle with keeping Officers in line because they don’t understand that if you are a Police Officer, you must follow orders and understand that this is not a set story gameplay, it’s role play. Your actions can lead the situation in millions of directions. 

I think that each police RP group/clan should be evaluated on training to be deemed ok to operate. Some Departments (for example the MCSO, NYPD and JCPD) have shown decently trained officers and don’t have to be evaluated as a Dep but the officers themselves should still be trained again.

Back in the days this was a unwritten rule for officers to follow the hostage takers commands during these situations.

I guess some people don’t care about that rule anymore.

Because it's not a rule, and was implemented poorly even when enforced.

However, it is common sense that you listen to the hostage taker to avoid any negative outcome

Yes, like with the 2019 Miramar shootout.
Or during the arrest of Robert Seacat.
Or the siege of Waco.
Or at Ruby Ridge.
Or Miami Regent Jewelers.

Sarcasm aside, having a rule which forces FearRP to be applied from hostages would (imo) be a net detriment, as it blocks the vast majority of law enforcement action against hostage-takers, including things like sniper shots and brings into issue things like hostages inside a building, (where fear of rule infractions causes major changes in action, even when they can't be actioned or confirmed)

but the people who are not part of a group/clan seem to have a hard time listening to commands by superiors. Maybe that’s because they don’t know who the superior/supervisor is? Maybe you should have a tag under your name when RPing as PD that has your rank? (For example, I am a Sergeant so maybe something like this: “Rank: Sergeant | Supervisor”)

That seems like it could be useful, but it's never an issue I've experienced before, where normally a differentiating uniform and being active on-radio is enough.

[BlackDog]

Agreed, a rule to make you do what they say is a bad idea.

[Duckie]

Duckie
[quote pid='301394' dateline='1591984644']
but the people who are not part of a group/clan seem to have a hard time listening to commands by superiors. Maybe that’s because they don’t know who the superior/supervisor is? Maybe you should have a tag under your name when RPing as PD that has your rank? (For example, I am a Sergeant so maybe something like this: “Rank: Sergeant | Supervisor”)

That seems like it could be useful, but it's never an issue I've experienced before, where normally a differentiating uniform and being active on-radio is enough.
[/quote]
Yes, the uniforms are a very good way to differentiate ranks however, I associate white uniform for OIC and black uniform as a low-rank officer and tan uniform as a Sheriff Officer. I don’t believe that the tan uniform is known as a supervisor uniform.  We might need a lighter blue uniform for 2OIC or as a supervisor but not the OIC.

[MrMarsh]

Tbh i think a full blown police whitelist would do more harm then good (especially at this stage).
With sotushide we kinda commited ourselves a bit more to cops n robbers. And the (open) police has allways been quite popular. If we are too restrictive on this we could once again scare/piss off some players.

Whilst the suggestion has been approved it is fairly loose in details and suggest a cadet system as an alternative. Im much more in favor of sth like that. Where pd slots may be locked (or we implement a proper rank structure with everything beyond sgt. beeing locked) but people can play as cadets - till we somehow whitelist them.

People getting pissed about the police is not a unique quirk of out community. Its universally common. People quite often moaned about the police on FL and the police officers Monolith has are a fucking nightmare. I dont think we will ever completetly solve this.

Whitelist can reduce but will not irradicate violations. If we were to whitelist the server - we would still need staff.
Same thing goes for the police:

either we get a very restrictive whitelist which is gonna be a pain in the ass for most people as quite a few people will not want to bother to sign up on the forums, write applications or commit to a minimum playtime of sorts.
In that case we can expect a slightly more professional PD (though lets face it even the most veteran cops can stirr up shit) at the massive price of overall accesibility which is probably gonna upset people quite a bit.

The Alternative would be to ensure that everyone can make it onto the whitelist with reasonable effort. In that case even somewhat chaotic members characters (eg. emsens, pufitee etc.) could make it on there leaving us with no benefit other then ability to permanently remove their access if need-be. Everyone can answer common sense questions (when is it ok to shoot, when do you use sirens) in theory or on paper. It is dificult to assest a persons mental state or playstyle without quite a bit of speculation making us susceptible for bias claims and even more bias.

Overall i dont see a gain in this. Limelight is a SEMI-serious RP server. People enjoy it in part because of its relative ease of access, its low cost, overall creativity etc.... . If we lock up one of the juciest parts of the game (PD) behind too strict -  or too loose requirements we once again shoot ourselves in the foot.

People suggest this stuff because they all think they would make it on that list (if we were to be serious about it quite a few of them would not).



In the end of the day i would suggest picking up the recuit-rank idea or revamping the police slots with a certain rank structure (eg. 3 officers, 1-2 sgt, 1 chief) and locking up the chief or if nescessary even the sgt position. We could provide those possitions with slightly better equipment from the gov locker insentivising people to occupy those locked positions (making space on the whitelisted slots)

[Duckie]

Tbh i think a full blown police whitelist would do more harm then good (especially at this stage).
With sotushide we kinda commited ourselves a bit more to cops n robbers. And the (open) police has allways been quite popular. If we are too restrictive on this we could once again scare/piss off some players.

Whilst the suggestion has been approved it is fairly loose in details and suggest a cadet system as an alternative. Im much more in favor of sth like that. Where pd slots may be locked (or we implement a proper rank structure with everything beyond sgt. beeing locked) but people can play as cadets - till we somehow whitelist them.

People getting pissed about the police is not a unique quirk of out community. Its universally common. People quite often moaned about the police on FL and the police officers Monolith has are a fucking nightmare. I dont think we will ever completetly solve this.

Whitelist can reduce but will not irradicate violations. If we were to whitelist the server - we would still need staff.
Same thing goes for the police:

either we get a very restrictive whitelist which is gonna be a pain in the ass for most people as quite a few people will not want to bother to sign up on the forums, write applications or commit to a minimum playtime of sorts.
In that case we can expect a slightly more professional PD (though lets face it even the most veteran cops can stirr up shit) at the massive price of overall accesibility which is probably gonna upset people quite a bit.

The Alternative would be to ensure that everyone can make it onto the whitelist with reasonable effort. In that case even somewhat chaotic members characters (eg. emsens, pufitee etc.) could make it on there leaving us with no benefit other then ability to permanently remove their access if need-be. Everyone can answer common sense questions (when is it ok to shoot, when do you use sirens) in theory or on paper. It is dificult to assest a persons mental state or playstyle without quite a bit of speculation making us susceptible for bias claims and even more bias.

Overall i dont see a gain in this. Limelight is a SEMI-serious RP server. People enjoy it in part because of its relative ease of access, its low cost, overall creativity etc.... . If we lock up one of the juciest parts of the game (PD) behind too strict -  or too loose requirements we once again shoot ourselves in the foot.

People suggest this stuff because they all think they would make it on that list (if we were to be serious about it quite a few of them would not).



In the end of the day i would suggest picking up the recuit-rank idea or revamping the police slots with a certain rank structure (eg. 3 officers, 1-2 sgt, 1 chief) and locking up the chief or if nescessary even the sgt position. We could provide those possitions with slightly better equipment from the gov locker insentivising people to occupy those locked positions (making space on the whitelisted slots)

It’s pretty easy to get into a police RP group. I like your suggestion of having set ranks and whitelist them but then someone like a Capitan ranked in a RP group, could get stuck as an Officer in-game. Maybe, we implorent your idea for people who are not part of an RP group and the people who are, join a separate police job where your rank is automatically set. (Example: I am a sergeant with the JCPD so I join a job called “Ranked Officer” and when I join, I have my rank set under my name) the people who don’t want to be in a group can just be an officer or corporal or a non supervisor rank under their name?) just a possible suggestion to add to yours.

[Nev]

I believe the government, as an entity, should be a relatively moderated group. I think the moderation needs to be by a player-based group of members that have 

I think that Limelight should have a separate area of the site that will function and look similar to that of a local police department and it would be here that a user could navigate to a section to put forward an application. This being said, I think there should <obviously> be some in-game requirements that must be met before an application can be sent. This should be a hard-coded feature.

• Hour requirement, either total or in a police recruit role where they have limited equipment and features
  
• English proficiency exam (require them to pass, failing results in an application cool-down of (1) month?
  
• Entrance examination for LEO's should have a number of different areas that it should cover, including one that describes scenarios that you must select the right/best response to (Traffic stops, warrant protocol, de-escalation techniques, hostage situation, etcetera). This type of exam can be entirely online and made to be effective through a video-guided exam that'll properly depict these scenarios.
  

Once the user has met all three of these requirements, they should be able to access the application panel and continue with their white-list application, which can still be denied based on other determined variables.

Ideally, this system should not require much involvement from staff. I think we should be moving away from being that type of server and instead one that is autonomous without the presence of staff members. This should be the case too with new systems being integrated into our environment. That being said, I think that the review of these applications should be handled by a few different players that occupy some of the high ranking positions within the force. This being said, you'll need staff to monitor and run these operations in the beginning before the system can run on its' own legs. 

Having a more realistic, more intuitive government system in-game should take precedent over people that have been actively running/participating in government-based RP groups and/or clans. I think we should move away from that in general and have a more structurally sound system that isn't as prone to abuse and power-gaming (e.g. Setting your job or clan to FBI and attempting to 'force' RP)

[BasicallyMental]

I've not read a lot of the comments, but will throw my opinion in the mix cause controversy is cool.

Quickly from the comments i did read, if we are going to whitelist with no structure, alongside keeping the police groups, how do we monitor the people coming in and out of the whitelist? Is it just a case of allowing certain players within certain groups the ability to whitelist and unwhitelist, is it down to staff, what? Staff have enough on their hands and probs don't fancy also having to deal with whitelisting and unwhitelisting. 

Having a central administrative body who are dedicated to looking after the police force would be essential, else the whitelist becomes obselete and still allows for people to join and just piss around. - if we stick with keeping the different groups, are people allowed to go between the police groups? are they required to join one of the police groups, or are they allowed to just join and RP as a cop on their own front?

My idea of it:
• Chief system
We have merge all the current police groups, and have a community vote (election), on a chief. People can then campaign to become the Chief, become Chief for X amount of time (I.E. 1/2 months), and then a new one is elected. If someone makes Chief, they cannot be re-elected for 6-9 month period to allow for other people to flaunt their abilities in the role, which slowly eliminates the bais thing, allowing for new people to prove themselves.
This Chief, must be a member of the police department - have X amount of hours within the PD, or X amount of time serving as an officer. Will have access to make changes to the PD including policies, which will require to go through a voting stage of the command staff, and maybe supervisory staff, before it can officially be passed.

• PD structure
Please note I will say "staff" a lot in this section. I do not mean server staff, I am talking police staff.
I think following a current IRL PD structure, is not the way that the department needs to be taken forward. The structure needs to be unique to LimeLight, have unique policies, processes etc - the ONLY reason for this is WE ARE STILL A SEMI-SERIOUS COMMUNITY. While we want a good PD, we do not want a seriousRP setting.
- Base level staff
- Supervisory staff
- Command staff
Each level having the appropriate ranks.

[font=arial, sans-serif]• Internal Affairs
[/font]
[font=arial, sans-serif]Include an internal affairs system!!!! How tf we gonna punish anyone, if there is no one to punish them. This is where it goes back to merging the PD groups, because while one may say something is acceptable, one may say it isn't which leads to A LOT of confusion. If you then have a central "administration committee", you have them running the other groups for the people, and that then also makes having the PD groups obselete because, they aren't being run how the leader wants them to be.[/font]
IT IS EASIER TO HAVE ONE SINGLE POLICE DEPARTMENT, THAN 3/4 DIFFERNET ONES.
Alongside this, if a new player wants to make a police group, how do we allow them into the police system? Or are they then not allowed to make a group.

Not all my points, but this has to be a readable response.
Pro's of whitelisted PD with above points taken into account

• Much less complicated system
  
• Allow's for a lot more focused development (such as a website we can log into)
  
• Gives new players a chance to show their knowledge, and run in the big seat
  
• Doesn't require a lot of staff intervension
  

Con's of whitelist PD

• Doesn't allow for new players to join and fuck around
  
• Limits someone from making a police group
  

Before I end, I read somewhere it limits the government roleplay.
Because we are whitelisting a PD, does not take away the ability for a lot of focused Paramedic roleplay, or Fireman roleplay. The only thing we're limiting, is a minge joining the PD. People are still able to be corrupt, they just have to think a lot more about how they do it. People are still able to commit crimes as a police officer, they just need to make sure no one see's it.
Having a whitelist doesn't automatically make every single person serious.

Finally, one question I can see being asked is: "But, I have multiple characters. One got fired, so can the other join?" Well no? Else i'll join PD, murder a shit ton of people, get fired, and just rejoin under a new name. If you allowed in the same person under a different name, that takes away the punishment element.
People joining the PD, will be limited to their steamID, rather than an in-game name.