[Doctor Internet]

You may have seen https://limelightgaming.net/forums/thread-21069.html, and not realised that a Police Whitelist was approved.
And if you looked on the roadmap there's a new box.

Now, we're on the big questions.
Number One.
What issues are we trying to solve?

To break this down a bit, from what I can see, there are three main issues (issues in the biggest sense of the word, since one is an IC issue more than an OOC issue) with the current unwhitelisted PD, that I can see.

A lack of training, leading to dumbarsery. Cops firing over each-other, ramming each-other in pursuits, breaching procedures, issuing warrants to buy food, that sort of thing. Generally an IC issue, but bordering to OOC on occasion.

An excess of dickery. Quite a few people enjoy going police to be dicks. 15 minute arrests for jaywalking. Arrests for no reason, using corruption as an excuse. This is seperate from corruption in its severity. Sure, tasing someone for no reason during a stop is being a dick, but it has no effect on their longer term experience. Arresting them knocks 15 minutes out. Killing them gives 10 minutes of NLR. Somewhat IC, but mostly OOC. It has a much longer lasting effect on players than just the 15 minute arrest or death.

Finally, corruption, in its more minor forms. From @"GunGranny"'s beanbagging to accepting bribes to whatever else. Generally IC.

I can't think of any more, but again the question is this.
Which of these issues are we trying to solve with a whitelist?


And next, how do we want the system to be handled, in an IC/OOC sense. Obviously some parts would need to be "OOC", like signing into a website to handle whitelists, or using commands to approve them or whatever. But how ICly do we want this to be handled. Fully ICly, with the whitelist acting somewhat like a police group, using ranks and responding to IC complaints, to fully OOCly, as staff currently act with issuing punishments. Or perhaps some mix of both.

So we want your help. Please, your thoughts on these two big questions. Cheers y'all.

[Tom*]

I feel there should be as the bare minimum a google document in which players have to fill out which will then be reviewed by the PD. However, it would be a lot better if you had actual training, nothing to in-depth or long, just the basics.

Dickery is always going to be around whether we like it or not, that being said people who just want to minge around would be less likely to actually go through the application process or even just get denied.

Also, corruption can always be dealt with fully IC by an Internal affairs bureau which could be external (Not manned by police officers) this would reduce bias IMO. 

Also, have a commissioner elected for every x amount of time, they can just as easily be removed. This person just keeps order amongst the PD and control server-wide SOPs etc.

It should also be a persistent experience as in something you did on this day that could be seen as corrupt would still be investigated and potentially acted upon outside of that particular session. This makes people think more about their actions. If an officer was to be demoted their white list would be removed and cool down on re-application

I also believe as Faustie said a full In-game Implementation would be better than having it externally as A) some people don't have two monitors which would make tabbing out constantly a huge hassle. B) Some peoples PC's can barely run Gmod anyways without having Chrome open.]

[goigle]

I think it should be run like a police group. Have a commissioner/Chief voted in every x amount of time. I think it should be done all IC personally

I was thinking the same thing

[Duckie]

I think that you should not be able to join a Gov job unless you are part of an RP group/clan and have been trained by whoever is a supervisor of the RP group/clan. This could also make for more RP that is non-gov. If someone who runs a group/clan is not super knowledgeable with Gov positions, can be trained by people who are part of L2 and who are Gov Officials irl.

[Jen]

Personally, I'd like to see officers being able to sign in to a website, able to submit reports for calls they're given and maybe include a CAD system, but that's a conversation for another time. But also on this website, members of the public can report officers for corruption, etc.

I feel like people should actually be held accountable for their actions so they stop arresting people for petty crimes, hoping to calm down the police jobs with this continuous oh I didn't like that, warrant system as arrests can then be reported ICly and would hopefully be dealt with by an IA department (containing not only certain supervisors but any officers deemed fit for the job) to deal with any issues raised.

Adding on basic training as well to the cops should hopefully iron out any of the questionable responses that some officers have

With a proper hierarchy, I feel like warrants (search/arrests) can only be issued by sergeants+ (this could be tied into the database) so that people actually have to provide evidence and don't kick down every single door that exists. And arrests are handled differently, police officers would have to take them down to the jails to arrest people, hopefully stopping all the petty arrest for j-walking etc. and instead start to use fines.

[Tom*]

Personally, I'd like to see officers being able to sign in to a website, able to submit reports for calls they're given and maybe include a CAD system, but that's a conversation for another time. But also on this website, members of the public can report officers for corruption, etc.

I feel like people should actually be held accountable for their actions so they stop arresting people for petty crimes, hoping to calm down the police jobs with this continuous oh I didn't like that, warrant system as arrests can then be reported ICly and would hopefully be dealt with by an IA department (containing not only certain supervisors but any officers deemed fit for the job) to deal with any issues raised.

Adding on basic training as well to the cops should hopefully iron out any of the questionable responses that some officers have

With a proper hierarchy, I feel like warrants (search/arrests) can only be issued by sergeants+ (this could be tied into the database) so that people actually have to provide evidence and don't kick down every single door that exists. And arrests are handled differently, police officers would have to take them down to the jails to arrest people, hopefully stopping all the petty arrest for j-walking etc. and instead start to use fines.

Cad systems are always nice but you have to keep in mind not all people want to keep have to learn more serious and external systems and also this could cause performance for people with lower end PCs. Unless something is optimised and actually in game, thatd be neat.

 But I agree people should be able to report officers for corruption etc.

Officers should have to take people to the PD I agree with that. Arrest warrants would become a problem though if only certain people can warrant and at the end of the day its only 15 minutes max.

[Faustie]

Going to avoid commenting on the whitelist/roleplay specifics as I'm not active enough to make an informed opinion.

What I will say is that while I really like some of the ideas so far, think a little more about the implementation regarding both development and user experience/user interface. Some of these ideas would be great implemented directly within the gamemode, but become increasingly shoddy the more steps you take away from it.

For example, let's say we have the discussed whitelist roster, dispatch system, or commissioner vote implemented. Consider what would make it successful or just clunky, so from worst to best:

Worst case - System is entirely separate to LL infrastructure i.e. google sheets. This is clunky, may require a separate google account, and if very hard to integrate to future in-game updates so while it's the quickest to develop, it's the hardest to enforce in-game and develop updates for. It's also really, really bad for both new and old players who have to use a second monitor or alt+tab out of the game just to access this. Don't do this, please.

Acceptable, still very clunky - LL web-based service. Ok, slight improvement here. It's integrated directly with our infrastructure so is easily tied to the in-game DB in regard to new mechanics we might want to add or whitelist enforcement. However, it still requires players to tab away from the game to use, which is clunky for all players and confusing for new players. While the UCP is absolutely fantastic, it's also primarily non-RP infrastructure and support tools for players to use. It serves a different purpose and therefore its best implementation is in its current form as a web service.

Best option - Complete in-game implementation, using an updated government panel or similar. Technically you can just then develop a web-based service that is accessed via the government panel, too, but you still have to think about UI/UX design and how this would be used and displayed in-game in a smaller panel. This is by far the best experience for players to access and use a system clearly and with good comprehension, and for devs to continue to add great in-game mechanics and systems relating to the government. Something like this could still be accessed as a web service out of the game, too, but makes most sense to develop primarily for in-game use.

The last - and best, in my opinion - option of course has the greatest initial development time, but long-term is a much better solution and we already have experience and the required skillset in the dev team to do this within a reasonable time-frame, so long as the rest of the scope of this change is well handled. Much of the scope seems to be centred around making RP/administrative decisions, too, so the dev section can remain very focused on a great in-game implementation.

[BlackDog]

It would be interesting if it had an IC hierarchy and proper consequences for fuck ups and overall being an ass for no good reason.

You have a Chief, Various Sgts, internal affairs, the beat cops, detectives and so on.

With Internal affairs, these are the people who evaluate complaints filed against officers and determine if someone is demoted, temporarily suspended or removed from the position entirely. 

Removed officers can of course still reapply and get back on the force so long as they can pass and meet the requirements put forward. Should never be a Permanent loss.

[Guv]

A lack of training, leading to dumbarsery. Cops firing over each-other, ramming each-other in pursuits, breaching procedures, issuing warrants to buy food,

 i find that's the biggest issue with PD when im on, 

Usually when We Breach chief go head first into a raid and immediately gets killed

Personally, I'd like to see officers being able to sign in to a website, able to submit reports for calls they're given and maybe include a CAD system

@"Stell90"‍ i love that idea, as i now have dual monitors i'd be able to run both gmod and CAD at the same time

[Nudel]

There should definitely be NO rank-structure at all, no IC hierarchy. Just a simple whitelist allowing people to enter the police Sgt job/police officer job.

-Votings can and will be heavily biased
-If there is a set rank structure, it basically ruins every police RP group and their custom ranks
-Bias in general

Tl;Dr - Just add a simple whitelist allowing people to join by filling out a google doc for example.


Edit: Got another question. What will happen to people who've been playing police for nearly their entire playtime? Will they need to apply as well or are they "prooven"? Wouldn't it be a waste to let those people go through such a process despite their knowledge & playtime in this specific job?

[Nudel]

I think that you should not be able to join a Gov job unless you are part of an RP group/clan and have been trained by whoever is a supervisor of the RP group/clan. This could also make for more RP that is non-gov. If someone who runs a group/clan is not super knowledgeable with Gov positions, can be trained by people who are part of L2 and who are Gov Officials irl.

This also sounds good. There are a couple of police-RP groups that have established themselves in the L² "police-scene".

Still, the issue with bias remains.

[Brin.]

It would be interesting if it had an IC hierarchy and proper consequences for fuck ups and overall being an ass for no good reason.

You have a Chief, Various Sgts, internal affairs, the beat cops, detectives and so on.

With Internal affairs, these are the people who evaluate complaints filed against officers and determine if someone is demoted, temporarily suspended or removed from the position entirely. 

Removed officers can of course still reapply and get back on the force so long as they can pass and meet the requirements put forward. Should never be a Permanent loss.

I feel like Blackdog has been wanting a whitelist for a while. Good ideas here. Bias will always be a think but that’s the same IRL anyway. Maybe if someone gets “fired” they have to wait certain amount of play time or irl days before reapplying. A hierarchy is a must. Just staff would have to monitor it a little at least in my opinion.

[Catfish]

Personally I like the internal affairs idea. I think that having a system where you can submit a report on a police officer, and a detective investigates and decided the punishment is not only interesting but exciting.

(I ain’t saying anything without my union rep)

[Doctor Internet]

Some great feedback so far, but I still really need some help with this.

What issues are we trying to solve?

To break this down a bit, from what I can see, there are three main issues (issues in the biggest sense of the word, since one is an IC issue more than an OOC issue) with the current unwhitelisted PD, that I can see.

A lack of training, leading to dumbarsery. Cops firing over each-other, ramming each-other in pursuits, breaching procedures, issuing warrants to buy food, that sort of thing. Generally an IC issue, but bordering to OOC on occasion.

An excess of dickery. Quite a few people enjoy going police to be dicks. 15 minute arrests for jaywalking. Arrests for no reason, using corruption as an excuse. This is seperate from corruption in its severity. Sure, tasing someone for no reason during a stop is being a dick, but it has no effect on their longer term experience. Arresting them knocks 15 minutes out. Killing them gives 10 minutes of NLR. Somewhat IC, but mostly OOC. It has a much longer lasting effect on players than just the 15 minute arrest or death.

Finally, corruption, in its more minor forms. From @"GunGranny"'s beanbagging to accepting bribes to whatever else. Generally IC.

I can't think of any more, but again the question is this.
Which of these issues are we trying to solve with a whitelist?

What issues would this be aiming to solve?

[Duckie]

Some great feedback so far, but I still really need some help with this.

What issues are we trying to solve?

To break this down a bit, from what I can see, there are three main issues (issues in the biggest sense of the word, since one is an IC issue more than an OOC issue) with the current unwhitelisted PD, that I can see.

A lack of training, leading to dumbarsery. Cops firing over each-other, ramming each-other in pursuits, breaching procedures, issuing warrants to buy food, that sort of thing. Generally an IC issue, but bordering to OOC on occasion.

An excess of dickery. Quite a few people enjoy going police to be dicks. 15 minute arrests for jaywalking. Arrests for no reason, using corruption as an excuse. This is seperate from corruption in its severity. Sure, tasing someone for no reason during a stop is being a dick, but it has no effect on their longer term experience. Arresting them knocks 15 minutes out. Killing them gives 10 minutes of NLR. Somewhat IC, but mostly OOC. It has a much longer lasting effect on players than just the 15 minute arrest or death.

Finally, corruption, in its more minor forms. From @"GunGranny"'s beanbagging to accepting bribes to whatever else. Generally IC.

I can't think of any more, but again the question is this.
Which of these issues are we trying to solve with a whitelist?

What issues would this be aiming to solve?

I think you said it all. The biggest issue is the misuse of the position and the lack of training. I had an officer today who despite me telling him, “don’t go on the roof because they will execute the hostage” went up onto the roof when I was not looking and got the hostage killed, as well as himself and my other officer. I really struggle with keeping Officers in line because they don’t understand that if you are a Police Officer, you must follow orders and understand that this is not a set story gameplay, it’s role play. Your actions can lead the situation in millions of directions. 

I think that each police RP group/clan should be evaluated on training to be deemed ok to operate. Some Departments (for example the MCSO, NYPD and JCPD) have shown decently trained officers and don’t have to be evaluated as a Dep but the officers themselves should still be trained again.