[Kimpow]

The roleplay wouldn't be concluded, for I returned. Therefor, not thinking I needed to say such. 
Again, for I had the intention to fully return once I re-collected myself, which PMs can prove.

[Ishnifan]

(not involved but posting for zaid)

(Involved in the whole RP situation i was also there at the Vault) May i just add that after Kimpow ran away from the vault i ran after her but Due to StephanGH Blocking the vault entrance by the time i left the bank and Turned the Corner she was all the way down The road by that time as she had a Little headstart. No more than 10-15 Minutes later i get a texted by I think was Nemesis saying she was in the AFK slot so i decided to text Kimpow with something like "You know we are still looking for you right?" which then she replied by saying "im busy rn, just dealing with OOC stuff" i believe she replied at which then i responded by saying "You dug a hole too deep" which show that i gave her a clear sign we were still Rping if any staff is able to check the logs it would help (evidence wise) but i did give her a clear message that we were still Rping whilst looking for her, Thank you- ZaidPlays

[Kimpow]

I intended to return, though I thank Zaid for sending me that message. I was not going to tell him how upset I was with the whole situation for I believe that to only would end up in laughter etc. 

Again, private messages were sent to the person that would help me set up the continuation of the roleplay and have been locked in the logs. I encourage those that are able to, to have a look in the logs. 

I did in fact return, having bought the property that was going to be used for the roleplay, only to then instantly be put in an @-sit. Therefore, not able to continue the roleplay.

[Night]

Okay, let's try to respond to everything.

The wellbeing of a person always stands over RP, a game is a game. Real Life should always stand above this. The fact that you are banning her when a Moderator in your own team, and multiple players can confirm that she was genuinly distraught and unable to continue that RP is kinda disgusting. You should be more worried if she is okay, yes it's a game and shouldn't be taken to serious but some people genuinly get upset when they feel like they did something wrong. To then sound agitated towards that person is just another level. Try to understand people rather than only worrying about your own Roleplay and view on things. In the end we are a community, we should be there for eachother. Not trying to destroy eachother.

Yes, I agree, but you seem to be making us out as the bad guys here. Of course we're concerned about a player's wellbeing, but at the end of the day if a rule violation happens then we're going to act off of it. After seeing the chatlogs of the incident, Bambo didn't seem that agitated to me and he handled it well. Anyhow, if you feel too emotional about this then I would suggest you distance yourself from this unban request.

I'm led to believe that you metagamed with Kimmy here. Is it so coincidental that you just so happened to start shouting about where a church was, mentioning the bible when no mention of a church was made in-game? After extensive log checks, there's no mention at all whatsoever of Kimmy's location, which leads me to believe that you used third party software (ie Steam Chat) to communicate either indirectly or directly with Kimmy. Must I remind you that lying in the courthouse will be met with a hefty forum warning?

Lil’ Tibbs is the girl that wears the hoodie, and Kim Lawrence is her real name.

Whilst that may be, the character system isn't designed for that, which HR have clarified. I shouldn't need to go to a roleplay thread to clarify whether "Lil' Tibbs" and "Kim Lawrence" are two different people or individuals. If you meant for them to be the same person, you could have done as your IC name "Kim 'Lil' Tibbs' Lawrence", as that would indicate the two characters are the same and then you could change your job to indicate that your roleplaying as this "Lil' Tibbs" character. As I'm told, backed with evidence, that your job title was "The Red Revolt - Lil ' Goons", this could be altered to "The Red Revolt - Lil' Tibbs". This would indicate your roleplay was that of this Lil' Tibbs personality and not the standard everyday person you see walking down the streets.

The way that you've executed this seems to be a misunderstanding on your half. Personally, I don't see the correlation between Lil' Tibbs and Kim Lawrence, as they're both wildly different names from one another and I don't see how the two link. If it was fairly close to the name then I might be able to understand, but in this case we're talking polar opposites.

3. As for the FearRP. I am 99% sure it is not true.
The President himself ordered all guns away. I saw no guns within the vault apart from myself with a lowered M4A1. I then stood infront of Kimpows character. Tibbs. To prevent any harm being able to be brought upon her. She knew I was there to protect her. So when she was able to she knew I would help her out. There was no LoS at any moment for them to even put her under FearRP (even though they didn't even have weapons)

I'm going to trust the word of the staff who viewed the situation. Not only this, but ForceGhost has kindly provided a statement which contradicts what you've said.

My SSA had their weapons drawn while Kimpow was in the vault.

She ran past them on her way out of the vault.

Emphasis on the part that says "if you're not in a sit". Roleplay is considered a situation, as I'm sure you must be aware. You changed jobs in the middle of it. It's fairly clear.

As ForceGhost rightly points out,

1.3 - Do not reconnect, suicide, change job or do anything else to avoid a roleplay situation. If you suddenly have to go, inform the people you are roleplaying with via LOOC and give them a few minutes to conclude the RP. If you are unable to stay for those few minutes, we recommend that you go AFK instead of disconnecting and inform staff via @.

Whilst the original message from the staff member who's identity I've now confirmed internally and have spoken to during the course of this appeal did show uncertainty and a lack of context which perhaps could have been excused, I believe the above message is clear enough to state what you should have done, rather than what you actually did. As Welker pointed out, there's also a significant time difference between the message and the time you went AFK. You should have waited on the staff member to confirm it, not just do it and hope that the answer comes back allowing you to do it.

---

It's fairly clear to me at least why the ban was issued. After speaking to @Welker privately, he confirmed that FearRP was added to the reason because it was a contributing factor as to why the ban was issued (ie you were warned once then broke further rules) rather than an additional offence, thus I'll edit the reason to show that it was prior. Apologies for the confusion.

I'd like @StephanGH to respond, hopefully without the prior attitude displayed, to the comments I made at the beginning of my post please before I conclude. Of course, you're also welcome to post any more concerns or questions you might have but I ask that we keep it a little more civil from all sides, please.

[StephanGH]

Considering this is written on a phone. I won't be using any quotes @Night hopefully it's clear enough.


She did mention a bible before. In the Courthouse in private with Lozano. Also I didn't start shouting? I literally walked into the church. Didn't even say anything yet to anyone was just looking around as my character (he just walked in a golden church, he was amazed)

At that tine Mr. President (Forceghost) walked in. He just walked straight to the back room, I followed him there as I wanted to see more of the church. No one stopped me.

Only there did I realise a hostage was taken. Didn't know it was Lil'Tibbs or Kim Lawrence still. So I tried to take action. The President told me not to. I lowered my weapon, stood infront of Tibbs. And that's it.

I don't know where you get the "yelling around a church" from. I knew a church was in town, just hadn't seen it yet. And again. She disrespected the Bible, church etc. Over voice chat it might've been though. Still don't see why that matters. We didn't know if she was hostaged. Just knew she was unresponsive and kinda missing. Something not to weird for Lil' Tibbs. She lived in an alleyway after all. Lozano was just worried for her.

As for what you said about the wellbeing of a person. And the agitated part. I am going off of her comments of him seeing agitated. And I am glad you do worry about the wellbeing and feelings of a community member. Although the Moderators seem to not show the same ideals. However that's just my opinion.

As for the FearRP. I have also admitted that I could be wrong. And that I more focused on Lil'Tibbs, not the people in the vault. They could have had weapons out. I ofcourse respect that you trust your staff.

The shouting part, and goins POINTED however. Are definitely false in this case. They didn't even really have a chance as Lozano blocked them. However that's irrelevant at this point.

No metagaming was involved in the choices that Lozano [I] made. It was a coincidence of the President walking in.. And no one really stopped me from going to the vault. I didn't just walk in and search the building putting everyone at gunpoint and forcing me into the vault. I literally just visited a church.

Coincidences happen. It doesn't mean rules are broken. Unless you have actual prove can we not start accusing me of rule breakages? I do my best to follow all the rules set at all times. This is a UBR. Not a player Report. I am not the banned player, so I don't see why you are attacking me for defending someone.

[Kimpow]

Whilst that may be, the character system isn't designed for that, which HR have clarified. I shouldn't need to go to a roleplay thread to clarify whether "Lil' Tibbs" and "Kim Lawrence" are two different people or individuals. If you meant for them to be the same person, you could have done as your IC name "Kim 'Lil' Tibbs' Lawrence", as that would indicate the two characters are the same and then you could change your job to indicate that your roleplaying as this "Lil' Tibbs" character. As I'm told, backed with evidence, that your job title was "The Red Revolt - Lil ' Goons", this could be altered to "The Red Revolt - Lil' Tibbs". This would indicate your roleplay was that of this Lil' Tibbs personality and not the standard everyday person you see walking down the streets.

The way that you've executed this seems to be a misunderstanding on your half. Personally, I don't see the correlation between Lil' Tibbs and Kim Lawrence, as they're both wildly different names from one another and I don't see how the two link. If it was fairly close to the name then I might be able to understand, but in this case we're talking polar opposites.

Although you make a good point, I’d like to add that if there was any confusion they were free to contact me. It is not my task, I believe, to simply give IC information on a platter. I did this to lessen the chances of meta-gaming. 

If something isn’t clear, don’t blame the person who gives the information for to thinks  person it will be clear. They could have simply asked rather than assume that I swapped character. This again, proves the lack of confidence they have in me as a roleplayer, assuming the worst possible case. Which is quite odd, for Bambo even stated via voice that it was odd for a roleplayer of my calibre to break such a rule.

I have not even heard about the character swap during the @-sit, therefore thinking that they’re simply trying to pick anything they can get to punish me on. If they would have brought it to my attention, I would have notified them.

Whilst the original message from the staff member whose identity I've now confirmed internally and have spoken to during the course of this appeal did show uncertainty and a lack of context which perhaps could have been excused, I believe the above message is clear enough to state what you should have done, rather than what you actually did. As Welker pointed out, there's also a significant time difference between the message and the time you went AFK. You should have waited on the staff member to confirm it, not just do it and hope that the answer comes back allowing you to do it.

1.3 - Do not reconnect, suicide, change job or do anything else to avoid a roleplay situation. If you suddenly have to go, inform the people you are roleplaying with via LOOC and give them a few minutes to conclude the RP. If you are unable to stay for those few minutes, we recommend that you go AFK instead of disconnecting and inform staff via @.


The rule states that you cannot avoid a roleplay situation, which I did not. If you have to take a breather then it is recommended you go AFK instead of disconnecting and inform staff via @. I should have notified the staff via @, however, I felt like telling another staff member via discord was sufficient enough. When I heard said complaints about my departure, I messaged the staff member which sent the message seen in the steam chat, to confirm if it was alright.

Perhaps foolishly having had the feeling he knew the situation, for he did tell me about Bambo trying to ban me for something that I already received a warning for.

I will take the lesson to always make an @-call and inform the people of my brief departure. Even when fully knowing I will return. I feel the emotions of all those involved got affected.  Even now, I have people talking to me about how one or multiple staff members look down upon me for creating an unban request that is a pure “shitshow”.

I have talked to multiple people on staff and others, asking what to do in this situation. They assured me that a ban for this reason was too much. With no priors, nothing on record I get instantly punished with a ban. A permanent warning would have sounded more reasonable.

They decided to punish me upon the reason where Welker felt I did have ill intent. But how can you prove such when I already said I fully returned when I calmed down. Logs can confirm I sent someone a message saying I needed help to set up the apartment, when I just rented the door.

Avoiding a roleplay situation? No, I came back with the intent to continue the roleplay until I was abruptly stopped by Bambo. 
Contacted staff via @? No, however I talked via discord to inform a staff member I was going AFK.
Inform those involved via Local Out of Character? No, however, when asked by Zaid I replied instantly. Proving, I was in fact ready to answer any questions anyone might have had about my departure.
Was there any sign of ill intent? No, however for some reason when I confronted Welker with it he thought I did. Though nothing personal, right? 

I also have a large concern about how this was dealt with. Both staff members involved dealt with the @-sit. I believe it to be more fair when a neutral member deals with the situation. First Bambo talked to me about it, then when he timed out, Welker jumped in.

This concerns me, for both were heavily involved in the roleplay. They were per se, main figures in the RP. Everyone has emotions, we are all Human. I do strongly believe both staff members were taken hostage by their own emotion. Perhaps explaining the ban, instead of a warning.  I hope you understand my train of thought here.

[Bambo]

I wish to respond to things, that are voiced in such a way that makes me sound like an utter dick, and makes me look like I've targeted you.

1st of all, I have nothing against you or nothing against any player. I will not go around looking for slip ups to punish, that's something I hate especially since I believe if a person can learn from their mistake there is no need.

Perhaps foolishly having had the feeling he knew the situation, for he did tell me about Bambo trying to ban me for something that I already received a warning for.

At the initial thing, I not knowing Welker warned you about it, asked in @ chat stating that you broke FearRP and if someone could look into it. I then got told by another staff member that you were warned for it and I said;

Code:

v2b
[23:21:57]
[L²] Bambo
(STEAM_0:1:43202742)
@ requested "Did he? I just saw what happened."

And didn't pursue it further. I did not try anything because I again, have nothing against you. You have done nothing to make me go after you, and even if you tried your best to do annoy me (not saying you did, just giving an example) I still wouldn't go out of my way to find something to punish you with, because you are like any other player a member of community for me. I treated you like I would treat any other person.

I have talked to multiple people on staff and others, asking what to do in this situation. They assured me that a ban for this reason was too much. With no priors, nothing on record I get instantly punished with a ban. A permanent warning would have sounded more reasonable.

In the initial sit I was considering giving you a warning, before I timed out. I even voiced this to Welker but stating it's up to him because at the end of the day, it depended on how you received the information about the rule breakage and if you understood.

In the end, it is obvious that you didn't understand the FearRP breakage and the rule about AFK even though I tried to explain it the best way possible.

Please in the future make sure you understand what resulted you in breaking the rule.

Ask how you broke FearRP, ask about the situation, because from this whole thing I can see that you maybe now start to understand your FearRP breakage after different staff explaining it with detail, and from the initial warning you didn't.

And the AFK situation, I still feel you didn't fully understand why. I believe THIS was the reason why a ban was placed. A warning works fine if the person receiving it fully understands the rule breakage, but it fails if the person fails to ask and fully understand it.

They decided to punish me upon the reason where Welker felt I did have ill intent. But how can you prove such when I already said I fully returned when I calmed down. Logs can confirm I sent someone a message saying I needed help to set up the apartment, when I just rented the door.

I also wish to state, I had no idea when you'd return and if you'd return. We've had people hop on AFK for hours. Also, not knowing that, the other party that you failed to inform could have left not knowing of your intent of returning. 

I also have a large concern about how this was dealt with. Both staff members involved dealt with the @-sit. I believe it to be more fair when a neutral member deals with the situation. First Bambo talked to me about it, then when he timed out, Welker jumped in.

I am also in favour of that to ensure the person I'm talking to feels that they are treated fairly but you forget, at the end of the day this was a situation that didn't annoy or cause me harm for me to decide emotionally however, this is also the reason I asked another staff member to review and conclude this UBR, as I didn't want to make you feel unfairly treated I wanted someone else to look into it.

This concerns me, for both were heavily involved in the roleplay. They were per se, main figures in the RP. Everyone has emotions, we are all Human. I do strongly believe both staff members were taken hostage by their own emotion. Perhaps explaining the ban, instead of a warning.  I hope you understand my train of thought here.

This is at the end of the day a roleplay, and although your rule breakages were unfortunate to my roleplay, they didn't annoy me or cause me harm. I was just concerned with the rule breakages that occured and while still in-game looking into the situation I asked multiple staff opinions on it.

[Kimpow]

Hello, Bambo.

I did fully understand my FearRP breakage. It happened by accident and in the future I will be more cautious when someone might be holding a weapon. I will make sure I check twice. 

I am surprised you are bringing it up in a way as if I did not understand for in our @-sit we barely talked about it. Why do you think I don't understand? For I do believe I do. I acknowledged my mistake and apologised, as seen in the evidence.

For the AFK ban, I still stand firmly on the fact I did not avoid the roleplay due to going AFK. I had to go call down only to return when ready. Which I was not long after.

It is not my fault people ought to look on the scoreboard, see I was AFK and decide to fully end the roleplay. 

If you were doubting my return, then you should have asked. I stayed on my computer to answer any questions. As again, Zaid can prove. 

Towards the emotions perhaps thrown into it. I felt moreso Welker was troubled. To my opinion, his voice was shaking. Told me he thought I had ill intent and that I had to own up to the consequences. 

I tried to explain my case. Alas, to Welker it seems that real life health does not come before roleplay. It seems petty to me, if I may say such without striking a nerve.

I felt that my points were blantantly ignored by him. He might not be able to keep his emotions in check, I think. He apparently messaged someone telling that the UBR was a shitshow. Quite odd coming from a moderator that has nothing personal against me. 

I am not pleased with how things have gone, to say the last but I hope you can understand my point of view.

I understand yours, though I know what my intentions and plans were. You sadly do not. Perhaps I ought to turn the mirror towards you, so we can all learn from this experience. 

I have learnt quite a bit, but I think you all jump to conclusions too quickly. Again, no harm meant with said words.

Have a happy new year as well.

[Welker]

Hello, Bambo.

I did fully understand my FearRP breakage. It happened by accident and in the future I will be more cautious when someone might be holding a weapon. I will make sure I check twice. 

Except you knew full well I had a gun from the front door, to the office and to the vault. You claim you fully understood the Fear RP yet you have questioned it this entire UBR. You asked me not to kill your character, you knew full well your life was at risk, yet you still decided to break Fear RP. 

I am surprised you are bringing it up in a way as if I did not understand for in our @-sit we barely talked about it. Why do you think I don't understand? For I do believe I do. I acknowledged my mistake and apologised, as seen in the evidence. 

For the AFK ban, I still stand firmly on the fact I did not avoid the roleplay due to going AFK. I had to go call down only to return when ready. Which I was not long after.

It is not my fault people ought to look on the scoreboard, see I was AFK and decide to fully end the roleplay. 

It was your decision to change jobs during an RP situation. It is nobody elses responsibility to chase after you to continue an RP

If you were doubting my return, then you should have asked. I stayed on my computer to answer any questions. As again, Zaid can prove. 

Towards the emotions perhaps thrown into it. I felt moreso Welker was troubled. To my opinion, his voice was shaking. Told me he thought I had ill intent and that I had to own up to the consequences. 

I tried to explain my case. Alas, to Welker it seems that real life health does not come before roleplay. It seems petty to me, if I may say such without striking a nerve.

I think that is a great exaggeration. It was 9 am and I had not slept, I was tired. I'd hardly say my voice was shaking. It is my job as a moderator to follow up on such concerns, it is unfortunate you feel following up on rule breakages is petty. 

I felt that my points were blantantly ignored by him. He might not be able to keep his emotions in check, I think. He apparently messaged someone telling that the UBR was a shitshow. Quite odd coming from a moderator that has nothing personal against me. 

I am not pleased with how things have gone, to say the last but I hope you can understand my point of view.

Your entire argument is based on emotions. I am not entirely sure why you're claiming my judgement was emotion based, I hardly know you nor do I really care (Personally) you broke the rules during my RP. I did say to someone over private messages that this UBR was a shit show due to how unnecessarily complicated you have made it.

I understand yours, though I know what my intentions and plans were. You sadly do not. Perhaps I ought to turn the mirror towards you, so we can all learn from this experience. 

Again, you're trying to put the blame elsewhere when you're the one who broke the rules. I understand it is upsetting to be punished for rule breakages however you should learn from the experience instead of reflecting the blame elsewhere. 

I have learnt quite a bit, but I think you all jump to conclusions too quickly. Again, no harm meant with said words.

Have a happy new year as well.

[Night]

...I’d like to add that if there was any confusion they were free to contact me. It is not my task, I believe, to simply give IC information on a platter. I did this to lessen the chances of meta-gaming.

No, but your expected to follow the rules. As mentioned, the character system is not designed that way. How am I supposed to know that "Lil' Tibbs" and "Kim Lawrence" aren't two different people? You can't hide information away in a roleplay thread like that in this case. It isn't helpful. Whether your intention is to lessen the chances of meta-gaming or not.

If something isn’t clear, don’t blame the person who gives the information for to thinks  person it will be clear.

That made 0 sense.

They could have simply asked rather than assume that I swapped character. This again, proves the lack of confidence they have in me as a roleplayer, assuming the worst possible case.

It doesn't, but we don't need to always ask questions to confirm. More often that not, we've already got enough evidence to confirm a case before we even speak to a player. In this case, the evidence was already in front of us because of logs.

The rule states that you cannot avoid a roleplay situation, which I did not. You did, by changing to AFK. If you have to take a breather then it is recommended you go AFK instead of disconnecting and inform staff via @. I should have notified the staff via @, however, I felt like telling another staff member via discord was sufficient enough. For the same reasons you discover in this appeal, just over discord voice isn't appropriate. No other staff members would be aware. When I heard said complaints about my departure, I messaged the staff member which sent the message seen in the steam chat, to confirm if it was alright. And by which time, it's too late anyway.

You still don't understand why you were banned. Why the ban was issued in the first place.

Perhaps foolishly having had the feeling he knew the situation, for he did tell me about Bambo trying to ban me for something that I already received a warning for.

I'm not sure if you either didn't see the final part of my last post or have purposefully skipped past it, but that will be edited upon conclusion to make it clear that it was a factor, not another violation.

I have talked to multiple people on staff and others, asking what to do in this situation. They assured me that a ban, for this reason, was too much. With no priors, nothing on record I get instantly punished with a ban. A permanent warning would have sounded more reasonable.

It doesn't matter. Welker, whilst he's still in training, has complete discretion over the punishments he issues and when it comes to appeal situations, an admin reviews to ensure that the punishment was appropriate which I find in this case it is, seeing how you haven't understood why you received a punishment. Had you of understood then yes, a permanent warning would have been issued.

To further address your concerns about staff being "emotionally invested", that's the reason Bambo asked other staff members opinions who also agreed that what happened was, in fact, a violation, to make the decision impartial. As Bambo mentions, there was no targeting or mal intent from the staff members involved at least in my opinion, but you're welcome to think otherwise.

---

Ban appeal concluded and denied.

I'm satisfied that the ban is valid and is more than reasonable, as a result, the ban will remain on record however the reason will be adjusted to indicate that FearRP happened in the past and was a factor to the ban. In future, you should make an @ call to make sure that all staff online are happy with you going AFK, and the people involved with the roleplay too. If they aren't, then you should try to make it so that the situation is in a position where those involved are happy for you to take a break. I'm confident that now this situation has happened, it won't happen again.

As for @StephanGH, I'm not going to pursue your metagaming allegation but no, it's not because I want to attack you but rather get to the bottom of it. I'll be nice, it's new years eve, I'll cut you a break. If it happened, don't let it happen, if it didn't then we don't have any concerns. Your behaviour though in the beginning of this report however will not be tolerated again, and will be given forum warnings for in the future if it continues. I don't need to put up with that from you, or anyone.

Again I'll state, several staff members had input in this case, and unilaterally agreed that what happened was a violation. I emphasise this because I feel you seem to be ignoring this part in your posts. We don't operate on a platform where if the situation is strange and not textbook, we just go ahead and do it anyway - we speak to other members of staff and gather opinions, and see where to go from there to ensure understanding of the situation in the future. When brought into the sit, you showed that you weren't too understanding of the violation, and thus a ban was issued to allow you to reflect. Seeing how you still don't understand in the course of this appeal, I wouldn't be satisfied with the removal of this ban from your record.

Happy new years folks.

[L²] Night
Server Administrator & Teacher Liaison Officer