[Jokhah]

@"Nevy"

Gonna do this by paragraph then tack on anything left at the end.

P1: Feels like an opinion to me, as I have had plenty of decent "semi-serious" roleplay encounters from low hour players like myself. Content updates seem to be varied and mostly focused on fixing or otherwise making things more playable. EX: I complained that the coroner truck couldn't get rid of bodies, update was pushed inside a few hours tops. That's effin service by Gmod standards.

P2: Realism and Serious RP generally are hand in hand. You can't have realism without a degree of seriousness. We are semi-realistic and semi-serious. The content doesn't push past semi, take weed or contra for example. You don't load it, water it, or generally maintain it past pressing E on it every now and then. Weed is one step more at its base by having you place pots and plant a seed, but past that it takes care of itself. I've seen more indepth growing systems on terrible games like SlaveRP, which required both light (natural or artificial) and water, in addition to pots and seeds, but to a degree it was still the same as the only effected factor was yield, not the plant itself. LL feels like a semi-serious, which by gmod standards, just means that there are an abnormally high amount and complexity of rules designed to force a specific play style or ban you out of existence. Neither of those outcomes are ideal for a person playing a video game, as the point of playing a game is to have fun and generally play how YOU want, not how the SERVER wants.

P3: I never expected to hear those word fly out of your mouth, kid. Of course players are here to have fun. Why else would you show up? This isn't a job, nor anything except a game, which who wants to play an unfun game. Go crack open a game of mousetrap, where the game breaks more often then a gmod gamemode from 10 years ago, you'll understand what I mean, AND you'll understand what it means to be one of the devs (though nothing you said has anything to do with them, just a fun thought). If there is no Freedom to RP, honestly eff even being on the server. No one comes on to be a "bot" roleplaying a specific "script." Serious RP doesn't mean no Freedom RP, but without Freedom RP you have Zero RP. This is more of the common complaint of passive vs aggressive, hidden under something else.

P4: There are a lot of fluff content updates for the government. I can agree with that statement. Criminal RP seems less fluffed and more towards the "near complete" side of life. The masks, guns, and lightbar updates, ect, are more from a general understanding of where other servers have failed to meet up with some demands of that degree of RP. Government RP needs to be on point at all times for a specific reason. If your gov options and systems suck, you won't have anyone in that section. There will always be criminals so long as you have guns and things to steal. But sadly, there isn't much to steal here. Contraband largely has no value to a criminal past their own, only police are rewarded for destroying it, meaning that most raiders are only doing it to be dicks, which sucks, but there should be real purpose to this activity beyond that.

P5: Completely disagree. You should have about 25% of your server population playing gov. If you didn't, there wouldn't be enough gov to hold down the city, which would be as far from serious and realistic as you could get. Remember, "citizens" rely on the gov to do nearly everything without involving @ and bans for rule violations. This is partly your annoying rule system that restricts aspects of only a selection of groups. And still yet, fear and fail RP are both stupid and crap in terms of rules, as fear is subjective to neccessity, and fail rp is only an opinion, because walking down the street saying "boooooopppp" is something I CAN do in real life and not be arrested or banned for doing it. It's harmless, if not annoying, and creates more roleplay situations then it ruins when you consider how butt hurt people get about it and all the things they do to make it stop. After the hour it took to get the annoying dude away from you, you should go back and reflect that he gave you an hour of something to do other than sit and stare at your contraband. Maybe a thank you is in order. It also opens the door for the "serious" (nazi) roleplayers to have all sorts of cool RP events. Too bad most of them just complain because they lack the capacity to see that they can turn it into something positive, merely because complaining is easier. EX Fear RP break: Man runs from police but is still unarmed, cops chase man back to his hiding hole and find out that he's really doing illegal immigrant rp or that his daughter is hostaged and the takers demanded this of him for safe return. EX Fail RP: Oh you don't respond to normal stimuli or respond? Call the psych ward, we got another one, Jeb.

P6: No, I don't agree with anything in this paragraph. You don't need to make things harder for the crims nor the gov. You need to make more options to make money in more legit ways. Lemme lay it out. Yall nerfed lumberjack RP because people flocked to it, now you are complaining about how everyone sits in their houses on contra, but it's really the only way to make good money. What, you want us all to run around broke and play poor people rp? We aren't supplied with a car, on a larger map, that takes money. We have to keep up with food, that takes money or a pole which took money (speaking of, robbers steal those, making it more annoying). We have to buy the stuff we sell, or we have to buy the recipes and usually the items to craft. Past that, you might make some money if you are a good builder or buy a good build, but neither of those concepts have to do with the game, but the player. Making money on a build (I.E. Gambling) is a way for some, but exclusive to those whom actually can figure out how to do it in a way that works without creating issues for the server, and it has to be tamper proof too. This isn't Builderclub RP and not all of us have a good mind for constructions using silly and often restricted toolgun features. To be crystal clear, MORE WAYS TO MAKE MONEY = LESS CONTRAFARMERS. NERFING LUMBER BECAUSE OF "BOTS" SOLVED NOTHING BECAUSE BOTS CONTRAFARM. Action RP (what kids call Aggressive RP) isn't the problem. Your lack of options in Talking RP is.

P7: Whitelisting any job does nothing except make people wait. It doesn't ensure the quality of the player, nor does it ensure the player won't misuse the job. In fact, whitelisting has a negative impact on both quality of player and misuse of the job, as they have to wait till they have X hours to start learning the job. When a player passes Y hours, they are no longer new and held to a different standard by everyone, so you are making it harder on them at that point, as they will be held to a standard that they might not be ready for. As for the no more TP to jail issue. No, huge no. You people need to stop and think about that long and hard. Don't come on here telling me you have, because I promise you haven't thought about it enough if you still support it. Sometimes it can take minutes to get a warrant to arrest. Now you want me to waste even more time, while do all your stupid /me commands that I couldn't care less about, while you get me in the car, try to get me to PD, process me, then after all that stupid wanna be roleplay garbage, which really is just the cop player jacking his own horn, then I finally get to serve my time? 5-15 minute teleport to jail, or would you like to spend an extra 5-60 minutes waiting to serve your 5-15 minutes jail time? Or worse, there is no jail timer and you get forgotten about in jail. Stupidest thing ever suggested in the history of semi-serious RP. And most arresting players and staff use this "Don't do the crime if you don't wanna...." crap. That is just an excuse for you intentionally taking up my time, for your personal enjoyment, because you don't even get rewarded for doing it. Literally, the only reason you say it is because IRL says it and you don't care that they can't play, you get off on it.

Will do the rest in the next reply, but chew on this while you wait for part two. This isn't an attack, this is a discussion, and I don't want you to feel like I'm just refuting what you say. These are my singular opinions and hold that weight, basically weight-less.

[Jokhah]

@"Nevy"

P8: Agreed, the random searching is BS and too all knowing. I was randomly breath checked when I was walking on a sidewalk, but some random cop whom was simply looking for an arrest. There are many ways to solve this issue by system without using player features like /roll. The best way would be to impliment an "XP" system (amount of hours you've spent in job overall) that will impact a % chance of failing to detect on a field search. Also add a detailed (strip) search that takes longer and needs to be done in a specific setting (jail, gov building, w/e) and has a zero chance to fail. Logically, police miss things in pat downs all the time, but strip searches generally find everything.

P9: Completely pointless. The scoreboard information doesn't reveal enough information to pinpoint anyone. Criminal activity in an area like a city is easily accessed information by the common citizen both by internet and physically walking in and asking for the information. You can acquire everything from lists of major criminals, wanted criminals, past criminal activity in your area, and even lists of known offenders in your area. Metagaming isn't really as much of an issue via scoreboard as it is via nameplate. What you should do is add in the serious rp unknown person system that is only negated via player identifying themselves or via police in-processing for criminals. I hate this system, but it's the smartest way. If you don't know whom you are looking at unless you've met them or researched them, then the patrols become less critical on searching for specifics and more on spotting actual crime. Also, this gives criminals the chance to actually get close to targets without being shunned for their job title indirectly.

P10: Again, largely an opinion. Serious RP isn't a specific system or ruleset. Serious RP is simply roleplaying your job as close to accurate as you can. In a large way, knowing all the codes, commands, /me commands, is the only true form of serious RP you can achieve.

P11: Citizens shouldn't be pushed. They are the default job. The concept of making them more valued then the actual jobs is foolish and leads to only custom citizen jobs on the board, like how almost all crims are now just custom citizens. Meanwhile, some of the jobs only use the market to deal, some even less than that. When your specific jobs still have little to no purpose, why expand on the one job that isn't supposed to be specifically good at anything? What want is more options, but the way you want it only further invalidates the actual jobs on the server, with few exceptions. What you actually need are more jobs that have purpose, that don't involve being a violent dildo.

P12: That is on you, honestly. I hope that you decide to be positive for reasons other then getting your way. Promoting server wide RP is every player who cares job and will not be solved by content, nor yielding to the current social state of the community. You either choose to solve, divide, or sit out of this problem.

P13: Elitist bullshit right there. Callin it how it is. Shifting to a serious game and saying eff those that choose not to. Elitism. This community wasn't founded by pure serious players. Honestly a lot of those RPs you listed are crap in my opinion, like I stated before. The community will only hemorrage more players making a shift that drastic, leaving you with your 6-20 people that are "true roleplayers" from that elitist perspective. If you want to grow, you have to be willing to accept new people whom play different from you. Also, name one city RP server better than this. I've been on all I've found and so far they are all sub par, especially where this group came from.

[Jokhah]

Honestly, I feel your fustration, Nev. I do. Being who I am, I laid it all out for ya as best I can. Best thing I can tell you is to try to leave that frustration outside of the discussion, as it doesn't help anything. Also, try to care about more than your special group of "true" roleplayers. Some of us "just here for fun" players aren't all that bad.

Lastly, if you aren't here for fun, please just don't get on. Its probably not good for you mentally. The point of a game is fun, not super seriousness. This isn't a job where people are required to roleplay in a specific fashion, and if you feel as strong as you do about some of the things you said, I'm telling you from personal experience, you need a break.

[Nev]

@"Jokhah

I appreciate your input, however, let's not forget that you've been here for a good minute and yet you're entering a discussion and contributing an opinion that to be frank - is nothing more than your perspective and not necessarily one formed through in-game experiences.

You and I have different visions of this community and this game-mode - this being said I know many that agree with many points that I have posted previously and that the direction towards SeriousRP, both in added realism and core changes in the game-mode, is one that is sought out by many.

P11: Citizens shouldn't be pushed. They are the default job. The concept of making them more valued then the actual jobs is foolish and leads to only custom citizen jobs on the board, like how almost all crims are now just custom citizens. Meanwhile, some of the jobs only use the market to deal, some even less than that. When your specific jobs still have little to no purpose, why expand on the one job that isn't supposed to be specifically good at anything? What want is more options, but the way you want it only further invalidates the actual jobs on the server, with few exceptions. What you actually need are more jobs that have purpose, that don't involve being a violent dildo.

I'll have to disagree completely with most of what you countered with - mainly your perspective on the Citizen role. For me, and many others, all non-government roles should be removed (Remove F1 Jobs) and we should disallow individuals from simply joining a position from the F1 Menu. This is one of the most important game-play changes that would re-enable creativity. We don't need cookie cutter tasks for people to do - and this large change would require a system to craft most of the items that were previously spawned from the F1 Menu through these sales positions. 

P9: Completely pointless. The scoreboard information doesn't reveal enough information to pinpoint anyone. Criminal activity in an area like a city is easily accessed information by the common citizen both by internet and physically walking in and asking for the information. You can acquire everything from lists of major criminals, wanted criminals, past criminal activity in your area, and even lists of known offenders in your area. Metagaming isn't really as much of an issue via scoreboard as it is via nameplate. What you should do is add in the serious rp unknown person system that is only negated via player identifying themselves or via police in-processing for criminals. I hate this system, but it's the smartest way. If you don't know whom you are looking at unless you've met them or researched them, then the patrols become less critical on searching for specifics and more on spotting actual crime. Also, this gives criminals the chance to actually get close to targets without being shunned for their job title indirectly.

Very incorrect. The scoreboard information is largely responsible for metagaming issues and while it doesn't allow you to pinpoint anyone - it certainly allows you to use IC information that was gained through an OOC method. The scoreboard is not considered the internet and it should not be used to gain knowledge of character names and job-titles. There is an extremely large issue most relevant for law enforcement as they simply can see 'X' amount of players playing as Corleone/Anarchist/Custom and assume that there is criminal activity going on somewhere. In all cases, this leads to increase patrolling with the notion that they know that they will likely find illegal activity where these players are collectively establishing themselves. You say this isn't an issue, to which I disagree. Scoreboard should contain nothing but OOC information. Let people discover IC information through role-play and character interactions in some way, shape or form.

P7: As for the no more TP to jail issue. No, huge no. You people need to stop and think about that long and hard. Don't come on here telling me you have, because I promise you haven't thought about it enough if you still support it. Sometimes it can take minutes to get a warrant to arrest. Now you want me to waste even more time, while do all your stupid /me commands that I couldn't care less about, while you get me in the car, try to get me to PD, process me, then after all that stupid wanna be roleplay garbage, which really is just the cop player jacking his own horn, then I finally get to serve my time? 5-15 minute teleport to jail, or would you like to spend an extra 5-60 minutes waiting to serve your 5-15 minutes jail time? Or worse, there is no jail timer and you get forgotten about in jail. Stupidest thing ever suggested in the history of semi-serious RP. And most arresting players and staff use this "Don't do the crime if you don't wanna...." crap. That is just an excuse for you intentionally taking up my time, for your personal enjoyment, because you don't even get rewarded for doing it. Literally, the only reason you say it is because IRL says it and you don't care that they can't play, you get off on it.

Once again, I'm not sure why you're coming back to the community and talking as if your opinion is somehow more educated as if we haven't thought long and hard about these ideas? Of course we have.

Arrests taking minutes? You're kidding right? Maybe back on FL. You can receive a warrant approval from three different roles which include the Police Sergeant, VP and President. I've never once seen an issue in terms of arrest-warrant time and even then - you can force them into your vehicle to transport them to a temporary holding cell before processing them. That being said, 90% of the time an arrest is done by an inexperienced player, or one that is simply wants to get rid of you, choosing not to RP things out but instead issue an immediate arrest warrant and TP you away and preventing any RP opportunities that could be included in a longer time-period.

Having to actually take an suspect to process them at the jails would be beneficial in the sense that you're increasing realism and decreasing the times a law enforcement officer can use his powers to arrest you without a proper reason. I experience these issues daily - just the other day being almost murdered and making a call to the PD about a suspect trying to break in to my store to kill me. Luckily, law enforcement and SWAT showed up and killed him and everything was worked out. Few minutes later, a lone cop shows up to my store and arrests me for prank-calling the PD about a fake situation. Made the /request to have the Sergeant come down to my store but before then, I was teleported off to jail. Guess what? This could be avoided, in my opinion, if the process was longer for both parties.  

Jail should be much longer than a few minutes and if we're successful in having a permanent (Character Creation System) then we can enable jail-times to span into a period of many hours/days. It must be a really dumb idea considering the large amount of support for it!

I appreciate your input and frustration but calling it the "stupidest thing ever suggested in the history of semi-serious RP" is seeming a tad hypocritical considering you began this dialogue criticizing me about not being open to ideas that favor one group of people. Seems like you yourself are making the same mistake in that you believe that just because you dislike the idea - everybody must dislike it too!

I personally am largely in favor of the inability to issue a warrant through radio but instead through a police computer inside Town Hall

[Jokhah]

@"Nevy"

I decided after re-reading your more recent post that I'd rather cut off my balls with a thin piece of paper, then to continue the conversation. The critical problem you have is that you feel like I'm talking down to you or otherwise doing something negative. Fact is I was just laying it out there.

Also, it is the stupidest suggestion ever. Just sayin it how it is. You are the same guy that pushed for the weed update, which basically promoted the issue you have a problem with now. Seeing as how there were unexpected side-effects from your last grand idea, one would hope that maybe you'd actually be open to other outcomes from your following ones. NOPE, that's not the case. Switch it to how you want it. Seriously, do it, with the gamemode in its current state. I'm gonna laugh my ass off when you are here with a similar discussion about how that went wrong too.

P.S. When you hate on people whom aren't like you and your crew, you are being an elitist, which you shat on others over and over again. THAT is what I wanted you to be open minded about, mainly. Not just the fact that your concept ideas combined are going to lead to one of the driest, time consuming, and least rewarding gamemodes I've heard of. Like HL2RP but somehow worse. I guess I shouldn't complain though, I won't be allowed there because I love guns and having fun.

[26']

A tl:dr at the end of these posts would be amazing.

[Zyth]

@"Nevy"

Gonna do this by paragraph then tack on anything left at the end.

P1: Feels like an opinion to me, as I have had plenty of decent "semi-serious" roleplay encounters from low hour players like myself.  Content updates seem to be varied and mostly focused on fixing or otherwise making things more playable.  EX: I complained that the coroner truck couldn't get rid of bodies, update was pushed inside a few hours tops.  That's effin service by Gmod standards.

P2:  Realism and Serious RP generally are hand in hand.  You can't have realism without a degree of seriousness.  We are semi-realistic and semi-serious.  The content doesn't push past semi, take weed or contra for example.  You don't load it, water it, or generally maintain it past pressing E on it every now and then.  Weed is one step more at its base by having you place pots and plant a seed, but past that it takes care of itself.  I've seen more indepth growing systems on terrible games like SlaveRP, which required both light (natural or artificial) and water, in addition to pots and seeds, but to a degree it was still the same as the only effected factor was yield, not the plant itself.  LL feels like a semi-serious, which by gmod standards, just means that there are an abnormally high amount and complexity of rules designed to force a specific play style or ban you out of existence.  Neither of those outcomes are ideal for a person playing a video game, as the point of playing a game is to have fun and generally play how YOU want, not how the SERVER wants.

P3: I never expected to hear those word fly out of your mouth, kid.  Of course players are here to have fun.  Why else would you show up?  This isn't a job, nor anything except a game, which who wants to play an unfun game.  Go crack open a game of mousetrap, where the game breaks more often then a gmod gamemode from 10 years ago, you'll understand what I mean, AND you'll understand what it means to be one of the devs (though nothing you said has anything to do with them, just a fun thought).  If there is no Freedom to RP, honestly eff even being on the server.  No one comes on  to be a "bot" roleplaying a specific "script."  Serious RP doesn't mean no Freedom RP, but without Freedom RP you have Zero RP.  This is more of the common complaint of passive vs aggressive, hidden under something else.

P4: There are a lot of fluff content updates for the government.  I can agree with that statement.  Criminal RP seems less fluffed and more towards the "near complete" side of life.  The masks, guns, and lightbar updates, ect, are more from a general understanding of where other servers have failed to meet up with some demands of that degree of RP.  Government RP needs to be on point at all times for a specific reason.  If your gov options and systems suck, you won't have anyone in that section.  There will always be criminals so long as you have guns and things to steal.  But sadly, there isn't much to steal here.  Contraband largely has no value to a criminal past their own, only police are rewarded for destroying it, meaning that most raiders are only doing it to be dicks, which sucks, but there should be real purpose to this activity beyond that.

P5: Completely disagree.  You should have about 25% of your server population playing gov.  If you didn't, there wouldn't be enough gov to hold down the city, which would be as far from serious and realistic as you could get.  Remember, "citizens" rely on the gov to do nearly everything without involving @ and bans for rule violations.  This is partly your annoying rule system that restricts aspects of only a selection of groups.  And still yet, fear and fail RP are both stupid and crap in terms of rules, as fear is subjective to neccessity, and fail rp is only an opinion, because walking down the street saying "boooooopppp" is something I CAN do in real life and not be arrested or banned for doing it.  It's harmless, if not annoying, and creates more roleplay situations then it ruins when you consider how butt hurt people get about it and all the things they do to make it stop.  After the hour it took to get the annoying dude away from you, you should go back and reflect that he gave you an hour of something to do other than sit and stare at your contraband.  Maybe a thank you is in order.  It also opens the door for the "serious" (nazi) roleplayers to have all sorts of cool RP events.  Too bad most of them just complain because they lack the capacity to see that they can turn it into something positive, merely because complaining is easier.  EX Fear RP break: Man runs from police but is still unarmed, cops chase man back to his hiding hole and find out that he's really doing illegal immigrant rp or that his daughter is hostaged and the takers demanded this of him for safe return.  EX Fail RP: Oh you don't respond to normal stimuli or respond?  Call the psych ward, we got another one, Jeb.

P6: No, I don't agree with anything in this paragraph.  You don't need to make things harder for the crims nor the gov.  You need to make more options to make money in more legit ways.  Lemme lay it out.  Yall nerfed lumberjack RP because people flocked to it, now you are complaining about how everyone sits in their houses on contra, but it's really the only way to make good money.  What, you want us all to run around broke and play poor people rp?  We aren't supplied with a car, on a larger map, that takes money.  We have to keep up with food, that takes money or a pole which took money (speaking of, robbers steal those, making it more annoying).  We have to buy the stuff we sell, or we have to buy the recipes and usually the items to craft.  Past that, you might make some money if you are a good builder or buy a good build, but neither of those concepts have to do with the game, but the player.  Making money on a build (I.E. Gambling) is a way for some, but exclusive to those whom actually can figure out how to do it in a way that works without creating issues for the server, and it has to be tamper proof too.  This isn't Builderclub RP and not all of us have a good mind for constructions using silly and often restricted toolgun features.  To be crystal clear, MORE WAYS TO MAKE MONEY = LESS CONTRAFARMERS.  NERFING LUMBER BECAUSE OF "BOTS" SOLVED NOTHING BECAUSE BOTS CONTRAFARM.  Action RP (what kids call Aggressive RP) isn't the problem.  Your lack of options in Talking RP is.

P7:  Whitelisting any job does nothing except make people wait.  It doesn't ensure the quality of the player, nor does it ensure the player won't misuse the job.  In fact, whitelisting has a negative impact on both quality of player and misuse of the job, as they have to wait till they have X hours to start learning the job.  When a player passes Y hours, they are no longer new and held to a different standard by everyone, so you are making it harder on them at that point, as they will be held to a standard that they might not be ready for.  As for the no more TP to jail issue.  No, huge no.  You people need to stop and think about that long and hard.  Don't come on here telling me you have, because I promise you haven't thought about it enough if you still support it.  Sometimes it can take minutes to get a warrant to arrest.  Now you want me to waste even more time, while do all your stupid /me commands that I couldn't care less about, while you get me in the car, try to get me to PD, process me, then after all that stupid wanna be roleplay garbage, which really is just the cop player jacking his own horn, then I finally get to serve my time?  5-15 minute teleport to jail, or would you like to spend an extra 5-60 minutes waiting to serve your 5-15 minutes jail time?  Or worse, there is no jail timer and you get forgotten about in jail.  Stupidest thing ever suggested in the history of semi-serious RP.   And most arresting players and staff use this "Don't do the crime if you don't wanna...." crap.  That is just an excuse for you intentionally taking up my time, for your personal enjoyment, because you don't even get rewarded for doing it.  Literally, the only reason you say it is because IRL says it and you don't care that they can't play, you get off on it.

Will do the rest in the next reply, but chew on this while you wait for part two.  This isn't an attack, this is a discussion, and I don't want you to feel like I'm just refuting what you say.  These are my singular opinions and hold that weight, basically weight-less.

I feel you, however you do come across quite aggressive to the development side of things, you need to understand that development takes time and we are working our hardest to keep providing new and exciting things to everyone.

[Jokhah]

@Zyth

This is an unexpected side-effect. I never intended to imply that development is slow or that the developers aren't working hard. I'm just putting things out there that I feel could be done or changed.

I'm presently attempting to offer assistance with development in the form of map update contribution, should I actually have what it takes. I know how to spot the problems, I don't know how to use the editing software, yet. I do have some understanding of how coding works, how computer logic works, ect, so map editing a pre-existing map shouldn't be too far of a stretch.

My intent isn't to offer a map change, but to attempt to create a Rockford_vL2b## where ## are place holding version history. Things like fixing a few buggy spots on the terrain surface, attempting to get the cinema screen to actually function to allow for a cinema owner job, minor tweaking, and perhaps if I actually get any talent with it, start using some of the "dead" spaces on the map where there are buildings that aren't really buildings.

@"Nevy"

I apologize for what I said. After a few more "roleplay" experiences on the server, I understand much better about which direction you are trying to take things. Though I still can't embrace it, I support your efforts to try and do better. I'll try to be less of a twat.

[Murdoch Murdoch]

A tl:dr at the end of these posts would be amazing.

Just stop being lazy or get out of discussions lol

[Murdoch Murdoch]

I never intended to imply that development is slow or that the developers aren't working hard.

Perhaps you should've done

[Vimpto]

Maybe start to slowly have more and more serious RP nights like 1 a month to see how people feel about serious rp and if people clearly enjoy it alot more then make a full move to serious rp