[Vauld]

I am 100% supportive of removing most player interaction based rules

[Overlewd]

The problem isn't that lethal force was used to defend against lethal force. The problem is the context of the situation as I've described in the PR. You know for a fact that as soon as you tranq a cop the police will start returning fire. This means the excuse for firing back is akin to walking up to someone, threatening them, have them threaten you back and kill them for it because "they threatened me".

The assailants did not 100% know that one of theirs was being arrested, he was not even handcuffed. Opening lethal fire on the police when you don't even know if your friend is getting arrested or not is RDM. The fact that tranq's were used by 1 person 10 seconds before the cops started getting executed with an AWM does not change anything, still RDM given the situation.

[ForceGhost]

Opening lethal fire on the police when you don't even know if your friend is getting arrested or not is RDM.

Lethal fire was used upon officers returning fire, not because anyone was getting arrested.

So just for clarification, if officers and SWAT are shooting at you because another officer was tranquillised you are not allowed to fire back in this situation?

The assailants did not 100% know that one of theirs was being arrested, he was not even handcuffed. 

Also for future clarification, what would you count as being sure someone is being arrested? Being handcuffed doesn't mean you're going to be arrested.

[Overlewd]

Opening lethal fire on the police when you don't even know if your friend is getting arrested or not is RDM.

Lethal fire was used upon officers returning fire, not because anyone was getting arrested.

So just for clarification, if officers and SWAT are shooting at you because another officer was tranquillised you are not allowed to fire back in this situation?

No, that's not the point. Please read what I wrote before, I can't really put it any clearer. The police were engaged on with an invalid reason. I was willing to more-or-less overlook that if only non-lethal weapons were used, but they were not.

The assailants did not 100% know that one of theirs was being arrested, he was not even handcuffed. 

Also for future clarification, what would you count as being sure someone is being arrested? Being handcuffed doesn't mean you're going to be arrested.

E.g you know for a fact that the police have caught the person on a very serious violation and they are cuffed and there is no chance they won't be arrested (e.g murder). Or you or someone who can communicate with you is standing nearby and can confirm that an arrest warrant was sent, etc etc. Just a side note that it depends on the arrest reason as well, for something minor you probably wouldn't want to start a shootout with the police.

[Soviethooves]

Opening lethal fire on the police when you don't even know if your friend is getting arrested or not is RDM.

Lethal fire was used upon officers returning fire, not because anyone was getting arrested.

That was caused by a group of shooters firing on officers without solid evidence of the officers' intentions.

So just for clarification, if officers and SWAT are shooting at you because another officer was tranquillised you are not allowed to fire back in this situation?

You are if you know the situation will HAVE to escalate to that. In the situation described, the officers ran for cover, allowing the objective to escape. Even though the objective was complete, the shooters stayed back to shoot at already helpless targets.

The assailants did not 100% know that one of theirs was being arrested, he was not even handcuffed. 

Also for future clarification, what would you count as being sure someone is being arrested? Being handcuffed doesn't mean you're going to be arrested.

Handcuffs, PM's, something solid. A cop talking or near your friend is not a sign of an arrest. The reason handcuffs are allowed is that when put in handcuffs, you are not allowed to leave the area. This can be forced detainment or an arrest. Both are unpleasing to criminals. Your friend talking to a cop shouldn't be worrying.

[ForceGhost]

Would you count being told by the Police Chief you're going to be arrested as something solid?

@"Gungranny" @Overlewd

[Overlewd]

If he walks up to you, cuffs you, says "You are under arrest for X and Y", and requests a warrant, sure.

[ForceGhost]

If he walks up to you, cuffs you, says "You are under arrest for X and Y", and requests a warrant, sure.

By then it's too late, I can no longer communicate with my allies because I'm cuffed. Also because I'm instantly teleported to Jail there's not even a chance during transport to free me.

Also there would be no request, seeing that the Police Chief was the highest ranking member of the Government at the time, the warrant would be instantly approved.

Edit: It would be instantly approved, I was be teleported to jail and a raid would commence on the jails, leading to an even higher body count.

[Overlewd]

If he walks up to you, cuffs you, says "You are under arrest for X and Y", and requests a warrant, sure.

By then it's too late, I can no longer communicate with my allies because I'm cuffed. Also because I'm instantly teleported to Jail there's not even a chance during transport to free me.

Your allies can go do some recon if you get cuffed. If they do not already know that you are being charged with something based on context, it is also their responsibility to check that what they are doing is justified and necessary. Also in this case if the Chief was certain you were getting arrested you'd be in handcuffs immediately.

Also there would be no request, seeing that the Police Chief was the highest ranking member of the Government at the time, the warrant would be instantly approved.

Should not be relevant towards your IC decision making.

Edit: It would be instantly approved, I was be teleported to jail and a raid would commence on the jails, leading to an even higher body count.

Actually given the amount of cops were on scene from what I gathered it was probably going to be a lower body count for a jail break, but I'm not going to speculate and ultimately it doesn't really matter.

[Dick]

So in that case then, if ForceGhost is slapped with cuffs after he was told he was going to get arrested with the current scenario, would this with the slight change be allowed?

[Soviethooves]

Would you count being told by the Police Chief you're going to be arrested as something solid?

I would, but unless it is followed up upon and they actually ACT on it, no. I would say that is a valid reason to call your friends to watch however.

[Quest]

Why are the teachers asking questions?
Shouldn't they already know?

[Dick]

Why are the teachers asking questions?
Shouldn't they already know?

We are human and don't know everything.

[ForceGhost]

Why are the teachers asking questions?
Shouldn't they already know?

Aren't we entitled to ask questions?

We could have asked them in private but I believe that further information on scenarios like this should be public so that other users can learn from them too.

[Overlewd]

So in that case then, if ForceGhost is slapped with cuffs after he was told he was going to get arrested with the current scenario, would this with the slight change be allowed?

What slight change? The cuffs being applied? It would certainly make the situation much more reasonable given the context, but cuffs do not instantly equal arrest either. I'll be honest it would have been a much harder decision for me in regards to the validity of the situation if the cuffs were applied, because on one hand it is still not ideal and based on assumptions, but on the other hand there exists the warped context from the parts of discussion witnessed by the person who would be handcuffed. Would still be preferred for the allies to maybe creep up a bit closer and see if an arrest is being carried out. In that situation with that specific context I could imagine myself giving the benefit of the doubt, but honestly you should have made a stronger attempt at non-lethal as well.