[Welker]

Make it harder to obtain thus creating more routes needed to gain it for average citizens/criminals. On top of that, review the amount of damage weapons can deal to the torso area as @Welker said.

That still leaves the problem of an unbalanced item in our system that was balanced before this was a thing. Why not just simply solve it by removing it and having only 50% Kevlar. That way we have some of our balance back, and we don't see people soaking bullets.

Only other alternative I can think of is to reduce normal kevlar to %25-30 and leave ceramic at %50.

[Soviethooves]

Make it harder to obtain thus creating more routes needed to gain it for average citizens/criminals. On top of that, review the amount of damage weapons can deal to the torso area as @Welker said.

That still leaves the problem of an unbalanced item in our system that was balanced before this was a thing. Why not just simply solve it by removing it and having only 50% Kevlar. That way we have some of our balance back, and we don't see people soaking bullets.

Only other alternative I can think of is to reduce normal kevlar to %25-30 and leave ceramic at %50.

That's a solution, but that seems like a hassle. Why not just have the one 50% Kevlar if it already prevents a decent amount of damage and is already accounted for in weapon balance?

[Night]

Because ceramic is actually good - and before it came in, SWAT firefights usually ended up in the criminals favour. Just re-evaluate how it can be gained, how much damage weapons deal against the torso areas and you'll be set.

[Toxic]

Vote changed to +support

[The Rock]

-Support

[Soviethooves]

Because ceramic is actually good - and before it came in, SWAT firefights usually ended up in the criminals favour. Just re-evaluate how it can be gained, how much damage weapons deal against the torso areas and you'll be set.

But why waste time and resources of we can just remove it? Law Enforcement had a FIGHTING CHANCE before Ceramic, and now unless you have more medkits than a hopsital and a ceramic vest, you will die.

[Vimpto]

+support
but keep for the swat as they are wearing big heavy armor thats more than kevlar imo

[Nudel]

-Support

[BlackDog]

I wish people would vote less because "I like ceramic" and more thinking of the bigger picture and issues this and medkit/roid spamming have caused.

I like it to, but at the same time, i realise and accept what needs to be done.

"The popular choice is not always right, and the right choice is not always popular"

[Brynn]

'The popular choice is not always right, and the right choice is not always popular'...

This has nothing to-do with it BlackDog, people are allow their own opinion and just because they're opinion differs to yours does not mean they're voting for the 'popular' option. I am voting to keep it, I don't use ceramic, nor do I like it, and it annoys me when people use and I'm a cop and die because I am under equipped. But why remove a system which many players use, without looking at the alternatives? To those who say 'It's a waste of development', it's not something that will get done straight away, like many of the other updates. Allowing the playerbase multiple options when it comes to defense is an important choice. Stripping something many players use is not a smart option without trying alternatives first.

[BlackDog]

'The popular choice is not always right, and the right choice is not always popular'...

This has nothing to-do with it BlackDog, people are allow their own opinion and just because they're opinion differs to yours does not mean they're voting for the 'popular' option.

(I in no way stated they are voteing for it just because it is popular, i merely stated that sometimes we need to make choices we may not like to make things better down the line)

I am voting to keep it, I don't use ceramic, nor do I like it, and it annoys me when people use and I'm a cop and die because I am under equipped. But why remove a system which many players use, without looking at the alternatives?

(Primary reason: Our weapons were in no way balanced with it in mind, we spent weeks balancing these weapons for a 50% reduction so that it would be both fair and fun, the extra 20% compounded with the unintended Medkit/Roid spam has created an unbalance issue that should be corrected.

We cant exactly just bump weapon damage up since that would make them even more lethal to anyone not adhereing to Dominant Strategy, something we specificly avoided during balancing due to the AK-47 problem we had long before we added these weapons (90 damage per shot)

All weapons we're a valid choice prior since they we're still a threat even with the lowly glock.)

To those who say 'It's a waste of development', it's not something that will get done straight away, like many of the other updates. Allowing the playerbase multiple options when it comes to defense is an important choice. Stripping something many players use is not a smart option without trying alternatives first.

(Options are great, but not at the expense of balance, if we balance the option prior to release thats one thing, but this was not done with ceramic, and only in hindsight can we see the kind of issue this is, and only with the foresight that gives us can we avoid it in the future.

The ceramic and Medkit/Spam issues need re-balancing to address a problem we have, and in my eyes we should not let this remain unaddressed)

[Brynn]

'The popular choice is not always right, and the right choice is not always popular'...

This has nothing to-do with it BlackDog, people are allow their own opinion and just because they're opinion differs to yours does not mean they're voting for the 'popular' option.

(I in no way stated they are voteing for it just because it is popular, i merely stated that sometimes we need to make choices we may not like to make things better down the line)

But then why put it? It makes it sound like you saying the people who voted for - support are just going for the popular vote. Anyway, back to topic.

I am voting to keep it, I don't use ceramic, nor do I like it, and it annoys me when people use and I'm a cop and die because I am under equipped. But why remove a system which many players use, without looking at the alternatives?

(Primary reason: Our weapons were in no way balanced with it in mind, we spent weeks balancing these weapons for a 50% reduction so that it would be both fair and fun, the extra 20% compounded with the unintended Medkit/Roid spam has created an unbalance issue that should be corrected.

People can medkit spam with the 50% kevlar, so if we bump weapons, we don't have to worry about medkit spam as they will be taking more damage. This hits two nails with one hammer. We solve medkit spam and the kevlar issue.

We cant exactly just bump weapon damage up since that would make them even more lethal to anyone not adhereing to Dominant Strategy, something we specificly avoided during balancing due to the AK-47 problem we had long before we added these weapons (90 damage per shot)

Then we should make the weapons which create more damage, more harder and expensive to get. Then it's up to people if they want a gun fight, introducing more passive role-play.

All weapons we're a valid choice prior since they we're still a threat even with the lowly glock.)

To those who say 'It's a waste of development', it's not something that will get done straight away, like many of the other updates. Allowing the playerbase multiple options when it comes to defense is an important choice. Stripping something many players use is not a smart option without trying alternatives first.

(Options are great, but not at the expense of balance, if we balance the option prior to release thats one thing, but this was not done with ceramic, and only in hindsight can we see the kind of issue this is, and only with the foresight that gives us can we avoid it in the future.

Just because it was not balanced prior to release what is stopping us doing it now? Nothing.

The ceramic and Medkit/Spam issues need re-balancing to address a problem we have, and in my eyes we should not let this remain unaddressed)

Yes, it needs addressing but just straight up removing it is not the best option.

[Soviethooves]

So, if we bump weapon damage, that would leave 50% kevlar useless and if you don't have any type of kevlar, you have no chance.

If we upgraded to FAS Medkits, this would fit the RP aspect of firefights immensely and stop medkit spam all together and a new wave of tactics would emerge for team medics. (Even a possible revival if all stuff is used, but they stay at 10% health when revived -BlackDog's idea).

We do need to make more powerful military weapons heard to get, but we shouldn't bump their damage. It's balanced the way it is as 3-4 with an AR-15 can drop you to 10ish% and with kevlar 20-30%. With Ceramic and medkit spam you'd need 3 mags and hope to god the player isn't doing the circle strafe move.

I fail to see how this is even an argument, this one item broke our balanced system and we don't want to remove it, but work our WHOLE system around an item that would be impossible to balance as you would be giving players an extreme unfair advantage if they don't cop out extra money for a vest that just ruins it for police officers, players who can't afford one, and players who wish to actually see firefight a little more realistic than the usual medkit spam ceramic hell hole we have now.

[PaulB]

So, if we bump weapon damage, that would leave 50% kevlar useless and if you don't have any type of kevlar, you have no chance.

If we upgraded to FAS Medkits, this would fit the RP aspect of firefights immensely and stop medkit spam all together and a new wave of tactics would emerge for team medics. (Even a possible revival if all stuff is used, but they stay at 10% health when revived -BlackDog's idea).

We do need to make more powerful military weapons heard to get, but we shouldn't bump their damage. It's balanced the way it is as 3-4 with an AR-15 can drop you to 10ish% and with kevlar 20-30%. With Ceramic and medkit spam you'd need 3 mags and hope to god the player isn't doing the circle strafe move.

Even without medkit spam you absorb a shit tonne of damage, damage needs to be buffed even for 50% kevlar it's just god dahm stupid.

[Soviethooves]

I got shot by BlckDog in a test with an AR-15 and it took about 3-4 rounds to drop me without kevlar. With kevlar it was 5-8. The damage is fine. Seriously, check it.