[pufitee]

two words, the map.

[Taylor]

I have to be vague as to not ruin the entire update.

What happened to the "transparency" Limelight was founded on?

[Cole]

Who gives a shit if they’re not revealing an update’s content, doesn’t help the player count (in the long term) so why worry about it. Let’s focus on the actual issues relating to long term player count.

[Montyfatcat]

It's a self feeding issue. Because there's nobody on, people get bored and don't stay on, causing there to be nobody on. 

Then we have the fact that once the server crashes, for many they just play something else. Most of our "content" is just crime, very repetitive crime. And all of it relies on players to make it fun. Even GTA has more fun ways of making money with the sell missions, businesses etc. But the team are adamant that players can fill that void and create a fun experience for everyone when the systems themselves are so dull.

I agree but it's slightly unfair to compare limelight, very small business to Rockstar games a billion-dollar company

However they got some things right about money making (considering that motivated most RP). 

When you grow weed on here, you can literally be carrying 1000+ bags of it risk free, nobody can stop and steal it from you, the police can't get ahold of it, even when it comes to producing there's only thieves and disorganised police to worry about.

Let's take a look at the marijuana sell missions you can do and see what we can lift up:

- The buyer makes specific requests. You aren't just driving a single van from point a to point b, you're having to fight AI, use special vehicles, deal with unusual demands like "set a flare down afterwards" which can alert other players. This not only makes selling risky, it makes it have some fun other than "Wahey, money!"

- Large sales require multiple vehicles and are larger risk. When you sell a full warehouse, you usually sell with 3 or 4 vehicles, depending on what the mission is. This means you have to work with others to get sales done, causing temporary truces and usual lone wolves to be forced to work together. Not only that, due to the fact that these vehicles can be destroyed, it means that there are more targets to protect over a period of time. 

- Variety. THIS IS WHAT WE LACK. When you sell something, you have various kinds of mission. Each kind of business has 5 or more unique sell missions, and 5 shared types of mission (for example the buzzards being used to drop parcels). If we add variety to the selling of goods, be it to players or magicking money out of the aether, then the gameplay gets less stale. Sure, this can be roleplayed, but people aren't willing to add danger and risk to the sale for the sake of roleplay, especially when there could be a good 200-300 grand on the line. 

- Investment. When you buy a business, it doesn't just create money (except for the money forgery but shush). It instead goes ahead and requires you to optimise it. And I don't mean "oh set a 20 minute timer on your phone to go check on your weed when you're driving around", I mean you have to pay for better equipment, upgrade your staff and choose whether the time you're spending stealing supplies is worth the 75k you save. 

So what can we learn from what Rockstar did right for once?

For one it is an understanding that the way you make money needs variety, especially in terms of what people will be doing repeatedly to make money to bankroll their fun. Nobody wants to do the same shit over and over again, especially not when that same shit involves very little interaction.

Number two. Make that variety distinct. Instead of adding "Oh the market fluctuates when people are selling a lot", add "Right, sometimes the buyer gives you a boat and asks you to meet his guy out by the barge, other times he'll have you run a stolen truck to the docks, and one time he actually got me to light a flare so that a plane could fly by and take the balloon full of product away."

Number three. Make it cool! Part of the reason people gravitate to criminal RP so much is that it makes you feel like a badass when you get shit done, it feeds a power fantasy. If you make the way you sell stuff cool and feel amazing to do, you'll get people hyped to come on and grind, not get people go sigh, place their pots then sit and watch videos for hours on end before going to a random guy in an alley and selling him enough weed to get the entire city of Amsterdam blazed.

If you want players to interact, give them something to interact through. Have the NPC act as a tool for RP, not treat it like it's a substitute for it.

[Doctor Internet]

I was speaking with ForceGhost the other day about Limelight and it's content, whilst it's not something that will massively improve player count on its own it does add up to the many small problems Limelight has. Limelight's content is very inconsistent between how it works and the user interfaces. Some addons feel like they've been strapped from Gmodstore whilst some feel properly made for Limelight. By this I mean, the content is very inconsistent and self-intuitive, especially for new users. 

This is an issue which has been noted, but the problem is two-fold. Whilst we have guides for

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entity interaction and

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UI elements, we have to get people to follow them, and go back and fix everything from before. That's a lot of work.

Which pretty much leads me onto my main point. Some features in Limelight require commands, where are these commands written? Nowhere. New players are going to join the server and have literally no clue how to do anything. Which is pretty much one of the larger issues as a whole - new player friendliness. Limelight, as a gamemode, isn't user-friendly.

Ironically, there is a command to list commands.

Will it take time to make these changes, should they get implemented? Yes. Does it require a load of developers? No. I'm sure the current team, both staff and non-staff (sorry Teachers and Contribs), will put the effort into helping Limelight if they actually want it to regrow and start becoming what it once was.

The majority of what you've stated above is development related.

Now, I don't want to seem like I'm pulling excuses out my ass here, but let's look at our development team.
Contributors main tasks are new "slot-in" systems, generally, so we won't talk about rewrites of code here, as that's not really their namespace.

We have 6 developers.
5 have full-time jobs and/or education.
1 is primary a web-dev.
2 also cover web.
4 also cover security / server-dev.
2 also manage development.
3 also run the business.
1 also does data protection.

Now, I can't speak for everyone, but most people only have an hour free per day, assuming a full time job, aye? Maybe a few hours on the weekend.

Lets run through my week.
5 days, we'll say 40 hours.

Around 8 hours put into L2 plates / tickets / GMS bollocks.
12 hours on the phone / online chat with the ICO.
8 hours on planning / contributors / project discussion / management / code review.
8 hours on the server, actually doing my job as an admin.
4 hours actually coding.

In that 4 hours coding, I'm doing bug reports, I'm doing documentation, I'm rewriting old systems, I'm writing new systems, I'm doing optimisation.
But sure, if we had 5 more of me, so we had a few hundred coding hours per week? I'd get you. But there's a lot more than just "code it gooder".

I agree with your assessment of new player ease though, I just disagree on "the current devs can do it all themselves".

[Night]

I have to be vague as to not ruin the entire update.

What happened to the "transparency" Limelight was founded on?

You have the roadmap to show what's being worked on. More information will be released closer to the time - there's a difference between not disclosing information at all, and just delaying it.

[ForceGhost]

I have to be vague as to not ruin the entire update.

What happened to the "transparency" Limelight was founded on?

You have the roadmap to show what's being worked on. More information will be released closer to the time - there's a difference between not disclosing information at all, and just delaying it.

What item on the roadmap are you referring too? Not much looks close to completion.

[Night]

What happened to the "transparency" Limelight was founded on?

You have the roadmap to show what's being worked on. More information will be released closer to the time - there's a difference between not disclosing information at all, and just delaying it.

What item on the roadmap are you referring too? Not much looks close to completion.

Again, I must be vague to what information I do provide so that I don't spoil the efforts of those working on it, as well as the other teams involved. You would be surprised though. I'm certain that when the update is closer to being completed than it is now, more information will come out in some form or another.

[Taylor]

You have the roadmap to show what's being worked on. More information will be released closer to the time - there's a difference between not disclosing information at all, and just delaying it.

What item on the roadmap are you referring too? Not much looks close to completion.

Again, I must be vague to what information I do provide so that I don't spoil the efforts of those working on it, as well as the other teams involved. You would be surprised though. I'm certain that when the update is closer to being completed than it is now, more information will come out in some form or another.

How would you spoil the efforts? You (the team) have nothing to lose by revealing the details, if anything you've got a lot to gain.

[Night]

What item on the roadmap are you referring too? Not much looks close to completion.

Again, I must be vague to what information I do provide so that I don't spoil the efforts of those working on it, as well as the other teams involved. You would be surprised though. I'm certain that when the update is closer to being completed than it is now, more information will come out in some form or another.

How would you spoil the efforts? You (the team) have nothing to lose by revealing the details, if anything you've got a lot to gain.

With details of the update changing on a regular basis, it wouldn't be right to say one thing and then have it come out different in the end as that would ruin expectations. Regardless, I won't derail the thread further by discussing why we handle the release of updates this way - you will know more information when it's closer to release and details have been finalised as has been the case for many other updates.

OT: Content and other changes are on the way to try and make the player experience more managable. Cole's point about a help guide is something I like the sound of, implementation could be tricky but there are definitely ways to help new players which could be considered.

[Taylor]

Again, I must be vague to what information I do provide so that I don't spoil the efforts of those working on it, as well as the other teams involved. You would be surprised though. I'm certain that when the update is closer to being completed than it is now, more information will come out in some form or another.

How would you spoil the efforts? You (the team) have nothing to lose by revealing the details, if anything you've got a lot to gain.

With details of the update changing on a regular basis, it wouldn't be right to say one thing and then have it come out different in the end as that would ruin expectations. Regardless, I won't derail the thread further by discussing why we handle the release of updates this way - you will know more information when it's closer to release and details have been finalised as has been the case for many other updates.

OT: Content and other changes are on the way to try and make the player experience more managable. Cole's point about a help guide is something I like the sound of, implementation could be tricky but there are definitely ways to help new players which could be considered.

It's not derailing the thread, it's completely relevant to the player rate. I personally feel the lack of "hype", if you will, is what is causing a lot of veteran players to stop playing. We have no idea what is coming out, so we don't bother sticking around hoping there's going to be a big change. Imagine if Rockstar dropped GTA 6 tomorrow out of nowhere, it wouldn't be anywhere near as successful as if they had built hype up for it. It's the same principle here.

[Reebs]

How would you spoil the efforts? You (the team) have nothing to lose by revealing the details, if anything you've got a lot to gain.

With details of the update changing on a regular basis, it wouldn't be right to say one thing and then have it come out different in the end as that would ruin expectations. Regardless, I won't derail the thread further by discussing why we handle the release of updates this way - you will know more information when it's closer to release and details have been finalised as has been the case for many other updates.

OT: Content and other changes are on the way to try and make the player experience more managable. Cole's point about a help guide is something I like the sound of, implementation could be tricky but there are definitely ways to help new players which could be considered.

It's not derailing the thread, it's completely relevant to the player rate. I personally feel the lack of "hype", if you will, is what is causing a lot of veteran players to stop playing. We have no idea what is coming out, so we don't bother sticking around hoping there's going to be a big change. Imagine if Rockstar dropped GTA 6 tomorrow out of nowhere, it wouldn't be anywhere near as successful as if they had built hype up for it. It's the same principle here.

I'll echo what Night said here...

Details are constantly changing. It wouldn't be fair to give details this early and then have them turn out to be wrong.

There are reasons these things are kept internal for such a long time. As much as the community in general may not like it, frankly its for the better because as I said...details are constantly changing.

[Taylor]

With details of the update changing on a regular basis, it wouldn't be right to say one thing and then have it come out different in the end as that would ruin expectations. Regardless, I won't derail the thread further by discussing why we handle the release of updates this way - you will know more information when it's closer to release and details have been finalised as has been the case for many other updates.

OT: Content and other changes are on the way to try and make the player experience more managable. Cole's point about a help guide is something I like the sound of, implementation could be tricky but there are definitely ways to help new players which could be considered.

It's not derailing the thread, it's completely relevant to the player rate. I personally feel the lack of "hype", if you will, is what is causing a lot of veteran players to stop playing. We have no idea what is coming out, so we don't bother sticking around hoping there's going to be a big change. Imagine if Rockstar dropped GTA 6 tomorrow out of nowhere, it wouldn't be anywhere near as successful as if they had built hype up for it. It's the same principle here.

I'll echo what Night said here...

Details are constantly changing. It wouldn't be fair to give details this early and then have them turn out to be wrong.

There are reasons these things are kept internal for such a long time. As much as the community in general may not like it, frankly its for the better because as I said...details are constantly changing.

And? Would rather be given some insight than nothing at all

[Reebs]

It's not derailing the thread, it's completely relevant to the player rate. I personally feel the lack of "hype", if you will, is what is causing a lot of veteran players to stop playing. We have no idea what is coming out, so we don't bother sticking around hoping there's going to be a big change. Imagine if Rockstar dropped GTA 6 tomorrow out of nowhere, it wouldn't be anywhere near as successful as if they had built hype up for it. It's the same principle here.

I'll echo what Night said here...

Details are constantly changing. It wouldn't be fair to give details this early and then have them turn out to be wrong.

There are reasons these things are kept internal for such a long time. As much as the community in general may not like it, frankly its for the better because as I said...details are constantly changing.

And? Would rather be given some insight than nothing at all

Here's your insight...

Spoiler

Details are constantly changing. It wouldn't be fair to give details this early and then have them turn out to be wrong.

[Taylor]

I'll echo what Night said here...

Details are constantly changing. It wouldn't be fair to give details this early and then have them turn out to be wrong.

There are reasons these things are kept internal for such a long time. As much as the community in general may not like it, frankly its for the better because as I said...details are constantly changing.

And? Would rather be given some insight than nothing at all

Here's your insight...

Spoiler

Details are constantly changing. It wouldn't be fair to give details this early and then have them turn out to be wrong.

That's your opinion, how about you ask the community want they want?