[Yug Lanimirc]

I have not seen the numbers, so I cannot go into specifics, all I know is that hosting a server with several hundreds of people will still costs quite a bit to maintain, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it would be doable

Then I would still stick with my first suggestion of improving the payout for passive jobs. The economy is pretty much ruined as it is, with tons of millionaires (hell, even a nobody like me in terms of server hours could reach that number in about four days of playing), so we might as well at least try to steer it to a server where people get much better pay for doing passive jobs.

As an example, I used to play as a SSA for my first 50 hours in game, as I didn't know about contraband, and in that time I saved about 50,000

Meanwhilst another player can earn more than that in one hour of contrafarming

Since everyone wants to be able to buy shit, the best cars, outfits, whatever, it becomes a logical choice for them to just contrafarm, which in turn leads to our cops and robbers problem.

So improve the payouts of passive jobs massively, but not more than contrafarming, so say, 75% of what contra would bring (on average). This way it still pays a bit more to be a criminal, thus for some making it worth the risk, but overall for the majority just becoming a chef or mechanic, as the payout would be plenty and the risk minimal, except for the occasional robbery.

It would make people unrealistically rich, but at least it would improve roleplay. Or at the very least actually encourage passive roleplay. I don't think this new found wealth will have an effect on most players, as ultimatly they come here to roleplay, and so even with two million in the bank they could still be passively roleplaying. (Storage wars rp would become quite interesting though)

On a unrelated note, consider the trump reaction removed. I have multiple tabs open on my phone at once, and confused this one with your permanent death suggestion thread, thus my shitty semi-decent joke response ended up just making myself look like a dunce

[Taylor]

So improve the payouts of passive jobs massively, but not more than contrafarming, so say, 75% of what contra would bring (on average). This way it still pays a bit more to be a criminal, thus for some making it worth the risk, but overall for the majority just becoming a chef or mechanic, as the payout would be plenty and the risk minimal, except for the occasional robbery.

Why should PassiveRPs make less? Why would a successful businessman make less than a high school drop out growing pot?

[Yug Lanimirc]

Education doesn't matter in this regard, any dropout with at least a bit of a brain, and by being at the right place and time, can earn a small fortune from illegal goods. 


Regardless, there are two main reasons:

One: 
The easiest way to implement my suggestion would be to improve salaries, as that would only require a change in numbers. The best option in that regard would be to add many more specific (passive) jobs to the list, in order to limited custom citizen jobs, which are hard to reward financially. This because one person can be playing as a businessman and the other as a homeless man and they would be earning the exact same. 
After implementing these new jobs, we can in turn put the salaries on par with their respective jobs, in terms of the current economy. Right now we have basically been gone through a semi-hyper inflation without the job payout having changed along with it. 
Lastly, improvement of the salaries is vital in the current gamemode for this idea to work, as otherwise a way to get a payout is rather limited, or would go against the server rules. You for instance could hardly ask someone to cough up 10,000 dollars for one chinese meal when roleplaying as a chef. 

Two: 
Criminal activity pays more, but in return the risk is higher. This is why Wall Street stockbrokers go rogue, because they want to earn more than their legit fellow brokers. In-game, we want to improve passive RP, yes, but that does not mean doing away with the black market. Making contraband users earn less would for them mean all risk with no reward. Right now using contraband to earn money is a no-brainer. However, implementing my suggested change would limit the amount of contra-farmers by making the risk-reward margin smaller but still acceptable for some, thus lowering the amount of overall criminal activity but still maintaining a black market which adds to the overall RP.

[Soviethooves]

Missing the point. You don't respawn in real life. Killing someone in a GMOD RP server is not the same as killing someone in real life. Unless you intent to give a murderer a genuine life sentence it seem daft to me to add consequences for the... murderee?

If we are gonna be Serious RP, we would be actig a LOT more like real life. So dieing in the game will have to be like losing your actual life and having to start all over. I think you’re missing the point of perma death. The longer you live, the more infamous and experienced you become. If you wanna act like an idiot and act stupid in a sitution where you are meant to RP real life and not a Gmod Server, then you lose any chance of progressing.

OK, what about the trolls? God knows LL gets enough of them. What's stopping one from buying a gun and then doing what I said above? Nothin'. YOU and others may act serious, but I guarantee 80% of the server wouldn't even consider it. Uness you want to lose 90% of the playerbase.

1. New systems making accessing firearms more difficult.
2. Moderation ACTUALLY putting their foot down on people with accessive rule breakages
3. Restricting access to certain tools via hour requirement. (Hours because tools should only be accessed after rules and RP basics have been learned)
4. Whitelist government with OOC and IC punishments for acting out of line
5. More RP freedom, hopefully stopping the pressure to play Aggressive RP 
6. Having an open mind @Matchbox

[Soviethooves]

Education doesn't matter in this regard, any dropout with at least a bit of a brain, and by being at the right place and time, can earn a small fortune from illegal goods. 


Regardless, there are two main reasons:

One: 
The easiest way to implement my suggestion would be to improve salaries, as that would only require a change in numbers.

It would also do nothing. If salary is raised, the economy becomes more inflated and makes the problem worse.

The best option in that regard would be to add many more specific (passive) jobs to the list, in order to limited custom citizen jobs, which are hard to reward financially.

No they aren’t. Give a small salary and give players access to to create, buy, and sell in a player ran market. Specific jobs would require more work, limit RP Freedom, and would require their own sets of rules.

This because one person can be playing as a businessman and the other as a homeless man and they would be earning the exact same. 
After implementing these new jobs, we can in turn put the salaries on par with their respective jobs, in terms of the current economy. Right now we have basically been gone through a semi-hyper inflation without the job payout having changed along with it. 
Lastly, improvement of the salaries is vital in the current gamemode for this idea to work, as otherwise a way to get a payout is rather limited, or would go against the server rules. You for instance could hardly ask someone to cough up 10,000 dollars for one chinese meal when roleplaying as a chef. 

But wouldn’t this paint a more realistic picture that crime pays, but has a heavy risk? Compared to legal ways being more difficult and expensive, but have a on level or higher reward. Not to mention makes Criminal RP more open and interesting. It would also be especially entertaining to new players and experienced players alike.

Two: 
Criminal activity pays more, but in return the risk is higher. This is why Wall Street stockbrokers go rogue, because they want to earn more than their legit fellow brokers. In-game, we want to improve passive RP, yes, but that does not mean doing away with the black market. Making contraband users earn less would for them mean all risk with no reward. Right now using contraband to earn money is a no-brainer. However, implementing my suggested change would limit the amount of contra-farmers by making the risk-reward margin smaller but still acceptable for some, thus lowering the amount of overall criminal activity but still maintaining a black market which adds to the overall RP.

[Fly]

A permanent death doesn't mean your char should get deleted in the system. Perhaps PD appeals would also get a lot more focus.

People really aren't seeing the bigger picture. Obviously, permanent death wouldn't just be instated on the server 'like that'. Other variables would change, some by default (behaviour of people etc.) and some that should require change by development.

[Yug Lanimirc]

@"Gungranny" 

It would also do nothing. If salary is raised, the economy becomes more inflated and makes the problem worse.

How so? The player-player economy I would understand, but the primary economy we have today is the player-market economy, which would suffer no massive effects, other than that people will finally be able to pay for the stuff they want to without resorting to either playing for hundreds of hours, or contrafarming. Them having access to more funds on the player-market economy would also allow for better RP, as they could purchase more RP related items, like vehicles. (Instead of having to work 50 hours to buy a towtruck, and then another couple of hours to buy a police car or something like that if you want to roleplay as an officer instead)

No they aren’t. Give a small salary and give players access to to create, buy, and sell in a player ran market. Specific jobs would require more work, limit RP Freedom, and would require their own sets of rules.

I would love to have a full player-player economy. The issue is that it would require a lot more overhauling of systems, and the installation of a lot more custom plugins, which in turn would make this update take a long time to arrive, with the current backlog of accepted suggestions. Thus my salary suggestion is based on providing a viable solution that is (relatively) quick to implement. 

But wouldn’t this paint a more realistic picture that crime pays, but has a heavy risk? Compared to legal ways being more difficult and expensive, but have a on level or higher reward. Not to mention makes Criminal RP more open and interesting. It would also be especially entertaining to new players and experienced players alike. 

Forgive me, but I don't really get your point here. I think I am actually in agreement with you right after your response, in my arguement that criminal rp must pay out more than passive rp due to having to make the added risk factor worth it, and to reflect real life. So I cannot really counter your point here. Please correct me if I am wrong though.

[Soviethooves]

@"Gungranny" 

It would also do nothing. If salary is raised, the economy becomes more inflated and makes the problem worse.

How so? The player-player economy I would understand, but the primary economy we have today is the player-market economy, which would suffer no massive effects, other than that people will finally be able to pay for the stuff they want to without resorting to either playing for hundreds of hours, or contrafarming. Them having access to more funds on the player-market economy would also allow for better RP, as they could purchase more RP related items, like vehicles. (Instead of having to work 50 hours to buy a towtruck, and then another couple of hours to buy a police car or something like that if you want to roleplay as an officer instead)

More Salary = Increases the bottom line = Players raising costs of items they create = Further inflated economy. Giving out more free money breaks economies, it doesn’t help them.

No they aren’t. Give a small salary and give players access to to create, buy, and sell in a player ran market. Specific jobs would require more work, limit RP Freedom, and would require their own sets of rules.

I would love to have a full player-player economy. The issue is that it would require a lot more overhauling of systems, and the installation of a lot more custom plugins, which in turn would make this update take a long time to arrive, with the current backlog of accepted suggestions. Thus my salary suggestion is based on providing a viable solution that is (relatively) quick to implement. 

More jobs = more limitations = more restrictions and permissions needed for each item for each job

Compared to:

No jobs (Except government of course) = No limitations = Players being more open to create and RP how they like. 

Wanna be a Chef that deals meth? Sure!
Wanna be a panhandling millionaire? Fucking go for it.

But wouldn’t this paint a more realistic picture that crime pays, but has a heavy risk? Compared to legal ways being more difficult and expensive, but have a on level or higher reward. Not to mention makes Criminal RP more open and interesting. It would also be especially entertaining to new players and experienced players alike. 

Forgive me, but I don't really get your point here. I think I am actually in agreement with you right after your response, in my arguement that criminal rp must pay out more than passive rp due to having to make the added risk factor worth it, and to reflect real life. So I cannot really counter your point here. Please correct me if I am wrong though.

I think I just confused by your example with the chef.

Overall I like where your mindset is, but you can’t just throw money into people’s pockets and expect that to fix an inflated economy. Just like Moneypacks and Contraband, you are only putting the minimum standard of funds up. 

For example:

If there is a store that charges $100 for an AR-15 (which includes work and materials) and minimum wage (Or IG Salary for citizens) is $20, most people would see $100 as a common price.

BUT

If the wage is bumped up to $40-50, the shopkeep will realize that he can charge more for work and materials of the weapon because all of the people now have a fatter wallet. $100 would turn out to be too low. Another factor of this may be  the cost of materials would go up as well. Meaning the shopkeep must up his price to make a better buck.

(This is of course saying that in this example weapons are crafted, not bought off market. The same example can be applied for our current system though. See ARES DEFENSE SYSTEMS.)

[Yug Lanimirc]

@"Gungranny" 

I totally agree with you in terms of the economic theory. History has proven time and time again in real life that a bad semi-hyperinflating economy cannot be cured by simply printing more money, and there have been examples throughout history to prove this. (Germany in the 1920s, Zimbabwe etc.)
Luckily for us, this is not real life, and the game limits the economy in several ways. 

This is why I made the distinction between the player-player economy and the player-market economy, and placed priority on the latter. I will firstly just give a small definition of the two:

Player-Player economy: 
The market you are describing to me. I.e. player X creates item Y, and sells it to player Z for a profit. 

Player-Market economy:
The market controlled by the server, i.e. the marketplace you find in the F1 menu. Allows you to buy materials at full price, and allows you to sell it back again at a standard 50% loss. Prices don't have to change along with my suggested change, which would achieve its aim of making more RP material available for people. 

Your suggestion is that when (more) player would start to gain more, the shopkeepers can start charging more. This would be true, as I stated in my example in the beginning, if it wasn't for the fact that this economy is still constricted by several other points, aside from the fact that the player-market economy does not need adjustment after this change as mentioned before. And though I am all for a laissez-faire system if it would be possible to implement that via plugins, right now I am just looking to do one thing, which is suggesting a system to improve (passive) roleplay without needing a full wipe of the server. 

Currently, we have 144 people on the server with a cash-networth (excluding their inventories) of over one million dollars. Among these are those most active on the server, whilst others have average activity levels. These are people like in John Jong, Nemesis, ForceGhost, Nudelsalat im Panzer, Gamerpro2266, Da Cool Cow, etc. etc.

Despite their wealth, their participation in roleplay is not hindered. They still pay, say, $1000 for a car upgrade, or some chinese meals, even if the seller is a fellow mult-millionaire. Why? Because they don't roleplay for the sake of earning money, they roleplay for the sake of roleplay.

Why? Because that is why they joined the server in the first place. However, to improve their roleplay experience, they have had to make enough money in order to pay for the stuff that facilitates their roleplay. I.e. towtrucks, vans, policecars, suits, etc. This is why people go and contrafarm. 

They don't do it because they like to stick in a room with a shotgun pointed at the door until the cops bust in, they do it because they need to earn money and there are no effective legitimate routes for the majority of players. 

Thus we spiral back into the mingefest we have today in the form of the cops 'n' robbers element. I say limited legitimate routes, because currently the largest player-player economy is weapon sales to facilitate this cops 'n' robbers roleplay situation. Like for instance your Ares Defense Systems. What is there aside from providing security groups and criminals with weapons? Taxi services, like Forceghost's executive transport group. Currently, possibilities to earn good money via passive roleplay is clearly limited. Would the passive market increase, the weapons market for the player-player economy would shrink, making that too not be profitable enough. 

It basically goes like such:
Players want to roleplay -> Players need money to improve their roleplay -> Players cannot earn money effectively via the legitimate way without contrafarming or facilitating the cops 'n' robbers situtation -> Players start to contrafarm -> Results in the current mingefest and the lack of good passive RP. 

So we already have shown that those with wealth will not destroy the player-player market, but there are two other points that add to this:

One: Rules
There are informal rules in place, which makes people not overcharge in the current already unbalanced economy. If proven necessary however, by me being wrong about that, it can still be put into a real rule, in the same manner how one cannot fine someone else more than $2000 (11.6), or you cannot mug players for over $500 (13.1). 

Two: Capitalism
If someone starts overcharging for, say, food, the market has the ability to rebalance itself as that is an excellent reason for competition to rise up. (Say, the fast food place starts charging 20,000 per hamburger, then someone else becomes a chef and starts charging less.)

Will my suggestion limit custom roleplay? Yes, absolutely. But in return, it will open up a lot more passive roleplay, instead of the current system which is 40% criminals, 40% cops and 20% other, resulting in the current mingefest of shootout after shootout, ending in discussions about who broke fearRP first. Furthermore, clear, concise rules regarding these new jobs would allow for better management/punishment by the current administration, as we otherwise end up with vague jobs as "murder", ending in the countless arguements I keep seeing about if something is or is not FailRP. 

I totally get your arguement, and am in agreement that the best case scenario would be a smaller server of true RP-enthousiast with a laissez-faire economy. However, something like that would require (at the very least) something like a whitelist for the whole server, and is just something that I see as unrealistic in the short term. 

Is my suggestion perfect? No, far from it. But, for me anyway, it is the simplest and most effective way to bring passive RP back within the near future without requiring a server wipe, whitelist, or mass plugins. 

TL;DR:
Current economy is titled towards providing a breeding ground for criminal RP, giving people the financial incentive to go to passive RP instead could bring back balance in the RP without having major changes to the server. 

[Cole]

If the development team really wanted to fix this issue, they can base the marketplace prices off of the amount of money in Rockford's economy, so then that way the price will fluctuate depending on the state of the economy rather than manually doing it.

In my eyes, it's either that or we innovate Gustav Stresemann's idea of bringing in a new currency to replace the old currency.

[Taylor]

If the development team really wanted to fix this issue, they can base the marketplace prices off of the amount of money in Rockford's economy, so then that way the price will fluctuate depending on the state of the economy rather than manually doing it.

In my eyes, it's either that or we innovate Gustav Stresemann's idea of bringing in a new currency to replace the old currency.

"Rockford Dollar", why not? I mean the US government did create the Hawaiin dollar for fear of japanese invasion.

[Taylor]

Well I think it’s now fairly obvious the team are doing nothing/very little about this issue. 

The *majority* of the team either don’t do anything to encourage proper roleplay, don’t gives tips to those roleplaying poorly or sit in their their little groups of friends prejudicing others based on whatever factor they so decide