[H4MZ4]

Reported Players: monk (STEAM_0:1:37833195) (@monk) , Foojile (STEAM_0:1:32272440) (@foojile79)
Server: Rockford
Time: 2018-Aug-02 22:22
Summary: I went into the PD to look for an officer to take him hostage for a unrelated reason.

I have my weapon out, and as I enter they do not have any weapon out, as I go closer, they walk away to hide near the wall and take their own weapon out and end up breaking FearRP.

They didn't have a weapon out but still walked a bit to take it out.

Evidence is gif because trimming a video is meh
Evidence: 1

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2

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[monk]

2.1 - You are considered to be under FearRP when you are in line of sight of a visibly armed person, who is within microphone range of you and is able to harm your character at that moment.

You didn't exactly say freeze sooooo...

If it's worth anything I was already scrolling for my gun when I saw some doofus with a gun walk into the wrong cell. Though I swear you weren't even on my screen yet when I was spamming left click to pull out my gun. By then, though, it was already too late as Officer Shit was also pulling out his gun as he was definitely not in direct line of sight as he was behind me.

[H4MZ4]

2.1 - You are considered to be under FearRP when you are in line of sight of a visibly armed person, who is within microphone range of you and is able to harm your character at that moment.

You didn't exactly say freeze sooooo...

If it's worth anything I was already scrolling for my gun when I saw some doofus with a gun walk into the wrong cell. Though I swear you weren't even on my screen yet when I was spamming left click to pull out my gun. By then, though, it was already too late as Officer Shit was also pulling out his gun as he was definitely not in direct line of sight as he was behind me.

Looks line of sight to me


You both walked away to forcefully avoid line of sight

[monk]

Shoulda been barking orders then.

[H4MZ4]

Shoulda been barking orders then.

shoulda followed fearrp

[monk]

Shoulda been barking orders then.

shoulda followed fearrp

Did I pull it out under gunpoint?

[I Too Have An Uncle]

Not involved.

[monk]

*Not Involved* You kinda did :p - 

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Huh, u right. Though as I said I was already in the process of pulling it out and moving back before he was around the corner (for me at least, I'm no expert but I would imagine 150 ping + low hz monitor would do that to you) and I wish there was a proper video that included the part right before so I could see the whole thing from his perspective instead of literally the second I pull it out.

I was going with his video's perspective of what appeared to be me out of sight before drawing my gun since that's already covered in the rules (give or take) instead of what would basically just be me asking staff to take my word on my perspective so I'll restate my defense based on that: I saw he was coming (watched him come out of the big prison door and go up to the either the wrong cell or up to the wall, you can can see that I'm telling the truth if you request the full video because that's what he did) and went to draw my shotgun before he got to the cell I was in and on my screen I was already in the process of pulling it out as he rounded the corner. I have too many hours and zero (minus one but that staff member is gone so that story is lost forever) cases of breaking FearRP. I wouldn't start doing it now. If you want to calculate things down to the millisecond (enough to justify the delay from my perspective) then sure you can say this is breaking FearRP. Point is, I was already in the process of trying to pull it out and he came around the corner as I did.

EDIT: Just to point it out since I meant to: you can see how I was trying to back up into the cell but I was being blocked in the video. When he comes in you can see the person(people) who were blocking me, which resulted in me stepping back out, back up towards the wall. I wasn't trying to just dash to the left to break line of sight to justify pulling my gun.

[monk]

Right, sorry for double post didn't feel like editing and making the previous even longer.

I knew something was off here because you definitely were not standing in front of me for a full second. This is because your video is frozen for half a second at the beginning. After a quick analysis of your video and further testing and research I came to the following results: (note: picture heavy and lengthy)

Spoiler

Your video was recorded at 20.65 frames per second.  Let's round that up to 21 since that's why my video software did.


It took 11 frames for the video to even begin, and 12 frames later the gun is in my hand. Which means I had almost exactly half of a second to A: be aware that you were even there, B: decide to break FearRP, and C: scroll through my equipment to my gun.

Let's break that all down.

A:
If you watch the video carefully, you will notice that I was watching where you came from all the way up until the frame after I drew my gun.

Spoiler

Video start. At this moment I was watching where I had seen him run off to.


A few frames later at the apex of me backing out of that corner so I could draw my weapon and move to the back of the cell.


The frame I drew my gun. It may seem as if I'm looking at you but in reality my head maybe moved at most a pixel or two. Compare the angle of the hats between the two. At most it was normal mouse movement while strafing.


A frame later and I'm very clearly looking directly at you.

Now time for the science aspect of this. According to 

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https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/ I have a reaction time of 
220ms.

Spoiler

 

The average reaction time to a visual stimulus is about 200-250ms according to various studies and data collected. Considering it took 500ms for my gun to be drawn it is technically plausible for me to have noticed you at the very beginning at to have noticed you 250ms before my gun was drawn. Though factoring in ping and monitor refresh rate and whenever the timer actually started we can safely assume that it wasn't until 24 frames in that I fully noticed your presence. But we'll get into that.

B:
Using the closest scenario I could because it's impossible to determine the average time to make a split-second decision, I've chosen driving statistics to prove my next point.

According to a controlled study from 2000 (

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https://copradar.com/redlight/factors/IEA2000_ABS51.pdf) it takes, on average, about 1 second for a driver to notice an incursion and make the decision to release pressure on the accelerator and 2.3 seconds for the total break reaction time. This is where the evidence begins to fall apart. If I didn't even notice your presence until at most 24 frames in, how can I possibly take a second to react to it and draw my gun when my gun was drawn a frame beforehand? Moreover, how can I possibly notice you being there which takes at least 250ms and then make a decision which takes about 1 second all within the span of half of a second? Answer: I can't. I was already in the process of drawing my gun before you came around the corner and did not voluntarily draw it under FearRP because I could not have even been aware of the situation at the time.

If it's worth anything I was already scrolling for my gun when I saw some doofus with a gun walk into the wrong cell. Though I swear you weren't even on my screen yet when I was spamming left click to pull out my gun.

C:
I was going to get on and give even more pictures, videos, and other clips as evidence for this but the server is down. So I'll just need staff to take my word that it would probably take about a second to scroll through my gear and select the shotgun. Maybe less maybe more depending on stress level and whether or not my scroll wheel wants to work correctly. While it is possible to quick switch to your last weapon used and I do have a key for it, staff can also confirm through logs that I was abusing prisoners the whole time and only ever pulled out my shotgun when we were told that armed men were coming to the jails and when I was memeing the president. Probably happened other than those times too but they weren't notable to me so. 95% of my time spent in the cells was swapping between my baton, taser, and first aid kid. Logs will confirm this.

Adding that all together you seem to be basing this whole PR on the idea that I could perform 2.25 seconds worth of brain and movement functions within half a second. It's simply impossible. I saw you come into the cells area, I made the decision to draw my gun before you came around the corner and you caught the last half second of swapping and clicking. By the time I noticed you were there aiming a gun at me I already had the gun in my hand.

TL:DR; the video shows me reacting to him being there 1 frame after I already had my gun out as determined by the head movement which would at least somewhat accurately portray my mouse movement. Even then, it took half of a second for my gun to appear in my hands, a third of the time it would take for me to even notice him being there and to make the decision to draw my gun. That's not even including the time it would take for me to swap to the gun itself.

To put it simply, I was already drawing my gun. I cannot be accused of breaking FearRP if I wasn't even aware of his presence until I already had my gun out. While the FearRP rule is written from the gunman's perspective, I could not have reasonably reacted to something I could not have known was there.

Point is, I was trying to swap to swap to my shotgun the second I noticed him entering the cells. He just so happened to have come around the corner as I was already selecting it.

Now for the real question. Why would you go into what is probably the most secured part of the PD where you know for certain contains at least two officers in order to take one officer hostage? Maybe it was because you were arrested earlier and abused as a prisoner?

Other than that though I rest my case for the evidence provided. Can you post the full video please? From where you left the elevator? I feel like I'm missing something here but from the clips it just isn't there.

EDIT: Grammar and whatnot

[H4MZ4]

Can you post the full video please?

As requested, from hiding in the PD interview rooms, running up to the elevator, hiding next to the prison door, and then the incidient itself.

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https://streamable.com/ik5i4 (fixed to match timestamps)

I can count like nearly 2 seconds that you were looking at the door frame/towards me which is more than what the original GIF showed.


------------

Now for some Q&A

how can I possibly notice you being there which takes at least 250ms

Foojile had seen my weapon at 0:45:25 which is allowing additional time that monk was in front of him that he might not have seen.

I recreated the scene with a chair where I think was placed



At 00:45:23 you were exactly at the middle of the door facing the hinges, at that view, you are clearly able to see the chair. Therefore I believe you saw me before 00:45:23 but I will use that as I know for sure you would've seen me



At 00:46:29 is when you moved away and the gun animation was pulled out, this is near enough a whole second (not including the time I guess you would've seen me), and 3/4 of a second after, you move away (with the gun still pulling out).

Where'as Foojile doesn't have a gun out but walks away from behind of you into the corner of the cell.

I made the decision to draw my gun before you came around the corner

*after*

meh i'll include more info later if you really want it, but there's the video anyway

[monk]

Can you post the full video please?

As requested, from hiding in the PD interview rooms, running up to the elevator, hiding next to the prison door, and then the incidient itself.

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I can count like 2 seconds that you were looking at the door frame/towards me which is more than what the original GIF showed.


------------

Now for some Q&A

how can I possibly notice you being there which takes at least 250ms

Foojile had seen my weapon at 0:45:25 which is allowing additional time that monk was in front of him that he might not have seen.

I recreated the scene with a chair where I think was placed

-snip-

At 00:45:23 you were exactly at the middle of the door facing the hinges, at that view, you are clearly able to see the chair. Therefore I believe you saw me before 00:45:23 but I will use that as I know for sure you would've seen me

-snip-

At 00:46:29 is when you moved away and the gun animation was pulled out, this is near enough a whole second (not including the time I guess you would've seen me), and 3/4 of a second after, you move away (with the gun still pulling out).

Where'as Foojile doesn't have a gun out but walks away from behind of you into the corner of the cell.

I made the decision to draw my gun before you came around the corner

*after*

Buddy you can say after all you want doesn't change that I was already scrolling for it as I was walking towards that door

meh i'll include more info later if you really want it, but there's the video anyway

Maybe I'm just stupid but I don't know what 00:46:xx is supposed to represent considering the video is only 46 seconds long. 

"I can count like 2 seconds that you were looking at the door frame/towards me" 
You must not be able to count as it was actually a second and a half. If you just watch how we're moving and the directions we're facing and the fact that you were able to peek once and us not notice you.

"At 00:45:23 you were exactly at the middle of the door facing the hinges, at that view, you are clearly able to see the chair. Therefore I believe you saw me before 00:45:23 but I will use that as I know for sure you would've seen me"
Literally the frame I was in the middle of the door I already had my gun out. If you mean when I was in the left quarter of the door frame (again I don't know what your timestamps are supposed to represent) then literally just count the frames and you will see it took about 10, as I said before. Which is about half a second. Even then, considering that I knew you were in the cells area on account of both physically spotting you for a split-second and hearing the door open, I was too busy looking at the top of my screen for my shotgun to even be paying attention to you being there. Probably why I said and still say that you weren't even on my screen at the time, because I likely wouldn't have seen you out of the corner of my eye.

This would be a completely different case if you walked up to us, said get on the ground with a gun to our heads, and I then pulled out a gun and instantly killed you. The fact that I'm here analyzing the frames to prove that I wasn't even looking directly at you until I already had my gun out or the fact that all of this essentially occurred in half of a second (starting from when you stopped and aimed at us, or when your first video started, as that would be when we were mostly likely to see you on account of delays or whatever else) should be proof enough that I'm not out here just breaking FearRP like it's internet's teeth. If I did it was an honest mistake because, as I've already said, I was already scrolling through my mess of equipment that I don't play cop enough to memorize to take out my shotgun. As for Foojile, I involuntarily moved in front of him, breaking direct line of sight minus a few extremities. You never once, after I moved, had a direct line of sight until I had already shot you. You probably can't even see him drawing his gun, just him hunching over to aim it. So even if I did notice you and stop drawing my gun when you walked up on us, it wouldn't have mattered in the end because he was hidden behind me while your gun was pointed directly to my chest and FearRP only applies if you are able to do harm to his character at that moment. 

In the end, though, something to consider is that you're the one that kept roleplaying. If you had said something in local OOC I probably would've just went with it or at least told you what happened from my point of view. But look pal, if I did it it was an accident, but from my point of view I didn't. Unfortunately I don't have my side recorded with eye tracking so I'm forced to break your evidence down frame by frame to try to prove that.

[H4MZ4]

Can you post the full video please?

As requested, from hiding in the PD interview rooms, running up to the elevator, hiding next to the prison door, and then the incidient itself.

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I can count like 2 seconds that you were looking at the door frame/towards me which is more than what the original GIF showed.


------------

Now for some Q&A

how can I possibly notice you being there which takes at least 250ms

Foojile had seen my weapon at 0:45:25 which is allowing additional time that monk was in front of him that he might not have seen.

I recreated the scene with a chair where I think was placed

-snip-

At 00:45:23 you were exactly at the middle of the door facing the hinges, at that view, you are clearly able to see the chair. Therefore I believe you saw me before 00:45:23 but I will use that as I know for sure you would've seen me

-snip-

At 00:46:29 is when you moved away and the gun animation was pulled out, this is near enough a whole second (not including the time I guess you would've seen me), and 3/4 of a second after, you move away (with the gun still pulling out).

Where'as Foojile doesn't have a gun out but walks away from behind of you into the corner of the cell.

I made the decision to draw my gun before you came around the corner

*after*

Buddy you can say after all you want doesn't change that I was already scrolling for it as I was walking towards that door

meh i'll include more info later if you really want it, but there's the video anyway

Maybe I'm just stupid but I don't know what 00:46:xx is supposed to represent considering the video is only 46 seconds long. 

"I can count like 2 seconds that you were looking at the door frame/towards me" 
You must not be able to count as it was actually a second and a half. If you just watch how we're moving and the directions we're facing and the fact that you were able to peek once and us not notice you.

"At 00:45:23 you were exactly at the middle of the door facing the hinges, at that view, you are clearly able to see the chair. Therefore I believe you saw me before 00:45:23 but I will use that as I know for sure you would've seen me"
Literally the frame I was in the middle of the door I already had my gun out. If you mean when I was in the left quarter of the door frame (again I don't know what your timestamps are supposed to represent) then literally just count the frames and you will see it took about 10, as I said before. Which is about half a second. Even then, considering that I knew you were in the cells area on account of both physically spotting you for a split-second and hearing the door open, I was too busy looking at the top of my screen for my shotgun to even be paying attention to you being there. Probably why I said and still say that you weren't even on my screen at the time, because I likely wouldn't have seen you out of the corner of my eye.

This would be a completely different case if you walked up to us, said get on the ground with a gun to our heads, and I then pulled out a gun and instantly killed you. The fact that I'm here analyzing the frames to prove that I wasn't even looking directly at you until I already had my gun out or the fact that all of this essentially occurred in half of a second (starting from when you stopped and aimed at us, or when your first video started, as that would be when we were mostly likely to see you on account of delays or whatever else) should be proof enough that I'm not out here just breaking FearRP like it's internet's teeth. If I did it was an honest mistake because, as I've already said, I was already scrolling through my mess of equipment that I don't play cop enough to memorize to take out my shotgun. As for Foojile, I involuntarily moved in front of him, breaking direct line of sight minus a few extremities. You never once, after I moved, had a direct line of sight until I had already shot you. You probably can't even see him drawing his gun, just him hunching over to aim it. So even if I did notice you and stop drawing my gun when you walked up on us, it wouldn't have mattered in the end because he was hidden behind me while your gun was pointed directly to my chest and FearRP only applies if you are able to do harm to his character at that moment. 

In the end, though, something to consider is that you're the one that kept roleplaying. If you had said something in local OOC I probably would've just went with it or at least told you what happened from my point of view. But look pal, if I did it it was an accident, but from my point of view I didn't. Unfortunately I don't have my side recorded with eye tracking so I'm forced to break your evidence down frame by frame to try to prove that.

Lol my bad I must’ve trimmed it after I looked at the times 

You had 1 and a half seconds to see me with a gun out as shown in my evidence but you still responded by moving away and taking your own gun out 

Literally the frame I was in the middle of the door I already had my gun out

You walked towards the door (with sight of me according to my methodology), then walked away from the door to take your gun out. You can literally freeze frame the video to see you stare right at me then perform the gun. animation and move away. 




we’ll let the admins decide

[monk]

-snip-

-snip-

Lol my bad I must’ve trimmed it after I looked at the times 

You had 1 and a half seconds to see me with a gun out as shown in my evidence but you still responded by moving away and taking your own gun out 

Literally the frame I was in the middle of the door I already had my gun out

You walked towards the door (with sight of me according to my methodology), then walked away from the door to take your gun out. You can literally freeze frame the video to see you stare right at me then perform the gun. animation and move away. 




we’ll let the admins decide

I had one and a half seconds to notice you, decide to pull my gun out, and scroll for my gun from my fists. Something I've already proven to take about a second longer to do. I must have some crazy multi-tasking abilities if I pull out my gun before I even finished making the decision to do so.

Your methodology is imperfect because it implies I A: positioned my camera to be where you were standing and B: were staring at that location specifically to spot you. I was angled and looking at the top of my monitor to find where my shotgun was so clearly I did neither of those. You came around the corner right as I found it and I clicked on it. I was moving towards the back of the cell anyway before I was either blocked or became aware of you standing there at that last moment.

Point is, if I ran over an admin who was phased in the middle of the road I couldn't be held accountable because I couldn't have reasonably been aware of him being there. Similarly, you can't expect me to be under FearRP if your only evidence of putting us under it is you standing there silently. We were the first ones to talk and by then I was already armed. If you had talked over mic this wouldn't have happened as we would have been aware faster as the brain reacts to audio stimulus in half the time it reacts to visual.

One last thing though. "You can literally freeze frame the video to see you stare right at me then perform the gun. animation and move away." Buddy if you think I can notice you, decide to draw my weapon, and then actually draw it all in the span of one or so frames then I don't know what to tell you as that's literally faster than the blink of an eye. Also compare the angle of my head to the previous picture (see my post) and you'll see that it barely even moved except for my whole body which strafed to the left.

No, I want the MODS to decide. (not really)

Spoiler

oh and your job is failrp

[H4MZ4]

I had one and a half seconds to notice you, decide to pull my gun out, and scroll for my gun from my fists. Something I've already proven to take about a second longer to do. I must have some crazy multi-tasking abilities if I pull out my gun before I even finished making the decision to do so.

Your methodology is imperfect because it implies I A: positioned my camera to be where you were standing and B: were staring at that location specifically to spot you. I was angled and looking at the top of my monitor to find where my shotgun was so clearly I did neither of those. You came around the corner right as I found it and I clicked on it. I was moving towards the back of the cell anyway before I was either blocked or became aware of you standing there at that last moment.

Point is, if I ran over an admin who was phased in the middle of the road I couldn't be held accountable because I couldn't have reasonably been aware of him being there. Similarly, you can't expect me to be under FearRP if your only evidence of putting us under it is you standing there silently. We were the first ones to talk and by then I was already armed. If you had talked over mic this wouldn't have happened as we would have been aware faster as the brain reacts to audio stimulus in half the time it reacts to visual.

One last thing though. "You can literally freeze frame the video to see you stare right at me then perform the gun. animation and move away." Buddy if you think I can notice you, decide to draw my weapon, and then actually draw it all in the span of one or so frames then I don't know what to tell you as that's literally faster than the blink of an eye. Also compare the angle of my head to the previous picture (see my post) and you'll see that it barely even moved except for my whole body which strafed to the left.

No, I want the MODS to decide. (not really)

Spoiler

oh and your job is failrp

fixed video link, download it, use your video software and make another essay if you will.

I had one and a half seconds to notice you, decide to pull my gun out, and scroll for my gun from my fists. Something I've already proven to take about a second longer to do. I must have some crazy multi-tasking abilities if I pull out my gun before I even finished making the decision to do so.

so why did u pull it out then lolll, you would've seen me before you clicked it because the animation started way after you initially saw me.

(I was) looking at the top of my monitor to find where my shotgun was

So? I'm still in the view of you so saying you were looking at a different area of the monitor is useless.

You came around the corner right as I found it and I clicked on it.

Doubt that considering the amount time I was facing you and you had no weapon out

Similarly, you can't expect me to be under FearRP if your only evidence of putting us under it is you standing there silently

I am standing there with my gun out tho, unlike you.

We were the first ones to talk and by then I was already armed.

FearRP is about being in fear of your life, not who talks first. You should've been in fear when I had my gun out

if you think I can notice you, decide to draw my weapon, and then actually draw it all in the span of one or so frames then I don't know what to tell you as that's literally faster than the blink of an eye

So your point is you had already clicked it before you saw me which obviously isn't the case when you see the amount of time you had to see me compared to when the animation began.

No, I want the MODS to decide. (not really)

??

oh and your job is failrp

thanks for that highly vital information that was in a spoiler for some reason, make a PR and tell that to everyone else that uses Thug as a job.

[monk]

-snip-

fixed video link, download it, use your video software and make another essay if you will.

Already did tyvm.

I had one and a half seconds to notice you, decide to pull my gun out, and scroll for my gun from my fists. Something I've already proven to take about a second longer to do. I must have some crazy multi-tasking abilities if I pull out my gun before I even finished making the decision to do so.

so why did u pull it out then lolll, you would've seen me before you clicked it because the animation started way after you initially saw me.

Holy shit dude see if some schools near you offer reading comprehension classes. I didn't see you until I was already pulling it out. I used to try to read with my eyes closed too but I got better.

(I was) looking at the top of my monitor to find where my shotgun was

So? I'm still in the view of you so saying you were looking at a different area of the monitor is useless.

There's this thing everyone has called a blind spot wherein your brain fills in the information with things it makes up. Or maybe my FOV is low. Or maybe literally any other legitimate reason to explain how me focusing on the opposite half of my monitor could explain you not being immediately visible to me.

You came around the corner right as I found it and I clicked on it.

Doubt that considering the amount time I was facing you and you had no weapon out

You say that as if you walked right up into my eyeballs and aimed a gun at me. I was looking for my gun, trying to move, and talking all at the same time. To me you weren't there until I found it, began strafing, and clicked.

Similarly, you can't expect me to be under FearRP if your only evidence of putting us under it is you standing there silently

I am standing there with my gun out tho, unlike you.

You can't walk up behind someone without saying anything and get pissed off if they pull out a gun before they turn around and find out you're standing there.

We were the first ones to talk and by then I was already armed.

FearRP is about being in fear of your life, not who talks first. You should've been in fear when I had my gun out

Dude, I physically cannot be in fear of you if I don't know you're there. Do you just walk around being scared 24/7? Literally just watch the video and look at the pictures of the frames I provided and you will see that neither of us were even aware that you were there since we weren't even looking at you but where we were expecting you to come from.

if you think I can notice you, decide to draw my weapon, and then actually draw it all in the span of one or so frames then I don't know what to tell you as that's literally faster than the blink of an eye

So your point is you had already clicked it before you saw me which obviously isn't the case when you see the amount of time you had to see me compared to when the animation began.

My point is that you're claiming I saw you and immediately drew my gun. The problem is that you said you have to freeze frame it. Which means you're claiming that I looked right at you, chose to break FearRP, and scrolled through my equipment to pull out a gun all in the span of a few frames. Which, as I said, is faster than you can blink and is literally impossible

No, I want the MODS to decide. (not really)

??

????

oh and your job is failrp

thanks for that highly vital information that was in a spoiler for some reason, make a PR and tell that to everyone else that uses Thug as a job.

Thug as a job isn't FailRP, breaking into the PD to take two officers hostage for whatever goofy reason you had as a thug is.