[Lord Octagon]

Your Name: [L²:RP] Lord Octagon

Ban ID: 6373

Banned by: Please include the [L²]/[L²:M] tag. And tag their forum account. (@administratorsname)
[L²:M] Nightmare
@"Nightmare" 

Server: All

Ban Reason: PRA (18696) - Breaking FearRP - you should know a lot better than this.

Why should you be unbanned?: 

2.1 - You are considered to be under FearRP when you are in line of sight of a visibly armed person, who is within microphone range of you and is able to harm your character at that moment...

I did not believe that my character had the potential to be harmed at that moment, seeing as his weapon wasn't drawn on me personally. However, from what Nightmare said, there seems to be a hidden addition to rule 2.1 that fearRP applies on all passengers within a vehicle. I wasn't aware of this fact, it isn't highlighted in the rules so I'm not sure where this has come from. Even if he was within microphone range, my character wouldn't have been harmed - by the time my character has the potential to be injured, he's out of the vehicle with his firearm in his hands. Therefore, as the third statement is required for fearRP to be applicable, it seems that fearRP wasn't broken in this case.

"The length is mainly down to this player's level of experience with the community, being a Teacher and having 1000+ hours. I would much expect better." - Nightmare

Even if this is a breach of fearRP, believe that the punishment delivered here was excessive for the 'rule breakage'. For a first time 'offence' for fearRP I was handed down a week ban; whereas the common the punishment is only a day ban - taking someone else's case into account, they were handed down a week ban for their fourth fearRP ban. In addition to this, my partner had +1000 hours as well and received a sentence half that of mine. For these reasons along with the above, I do not think that this argument applies here.
 
I would like to push for a complete removal of both the ban and blacklist, otherwise, I would like to request the following:
1. Explanation as to why the first request isn't possible.
2. Reduction on my ban to expire on or before 2017-12-16 09:44:11
3. Removal of my blacklist.

[Limelight Gaming]

The staff-members have received your unban-request, Lord Octagon.

It will take a while for it to be reviewed.

[SirWulf]

Hello Octagon.

Thank you for submitting a request.  I'm going to give my opinion on this matter as I was a part of the investigation during the original PR.

As such, I'm going to break things down a bit:

2.1 - You are considered to be under FearRP when you are in line of sight of a visibly armed person, who is within microphone range of you and is able to harm your character at that moment...

I did not believe that my character had the potential to be harmed at that moment, seeing as his weapon wasn't drawn on me personally. However, from what Nightmare said, there seems to be a hidden addition to rule 2.1 that fearRP applies on all passengers within a vehicle. I wasn't aware of this fact, it isn't highlighted in the rules so I'm not sure where this has come from. Even if he was within microphone range, my character wouldn't have been harmed - by the time my character has the potential to be injured, he's out of the vehicle with his firearm in his hands. Therefore, as the third statement is required for fearRP to be applicable, it seems that fearRP wasn't broken in this case.

From the research gathered, the weapon was in fact pulled on you while you were in the vehicle.  Everyone in the car was under FearRP while you exited the vehicle and drew your weapon.  Why do you consider this a hidden rule?  

'You are considered to be under FearRP when you are in line of sight of a visibly armed person, who is within microphone range of you and is able to harm your character at that moment.'  Everyone in that car qualifies for that basic rule.  There is no need to add in filler to include 'including all passengers in a vehicle'.  What this sounds like to me is that you are trying to find a loophole in the rule, which in itself is a violation of the rules.  Rule 1.9.

So again, before you had exited the vehicle the weapon was aimed at everyone in the vehicle, hence you were in violation of FearRP when you exited the vehicle and pulled out a weapon.

"The length is mainly down to this player's level of experience with the community, being a Teacher and having 1000+ hours. I would much expect better." - Nightmare

Even if this is a breach of fearRP, believe that the punishment delivered here was excessive for the 'rule breakage'. For a first time 'offence' for fearRP I was handed down a week ban; whereas the common the punishment is only a day ban - taking someone else's case into account, they were handed down a week ban for their fearRP ban. In addition to this, my partner had +1000 hours as well and received a sentence half that of mine. For these reasons along with the above, I do not think that this argument applies here.

I would like to push for a complete removal of both the ban and blacklist, otherwise, I would like to request the following:
1. Explanation as to why the first request isn't possible.
2. Reduction on my ban to expire on or before 2017-12-16 09:44:11
3. Removal of my blacklist.

First of all, each situation is dealt with at different levels.  You cannot compare other reports.  1 day for one player could be 3 days for someone else because of many different factors.  They are weighed seriously and we don't have a set slide rule automatically stating the one breach of FearRP = 1 Day Suspension.

The reason you were given an extension to your ban is due to your number of hours on the server and your current position as a Teacher.  As a Teacher you are expected to be a role-model, a player that is the example of how others should act, play and follow rules.  The way in which you went about the situation, the player report and other factors lead to the conclusion.  And believe me, this was not something that was decided lightly.  Your partner did receive a lesser punishment as he was not a Teacher among other things.

As for your requests, I can say that there will be no one or the other.  Depending on the final ruling, it might be decided to remove the Ban and Blacklist, or Denied completely.  But there are no expectations for your requests to be followed verbatim.

Thank you for your time.  We are and will be discussing this and will get back to you.

[Lord Octagon]

For fearRP to apply, three things must be the case.
1. Line of sight.
2. Microphone range.
3. Potential to cause harm.

1. Debatable, at most it was for a fraction of a second as seen in the video. Regardless, let's take a look at the next two.
2. Yes
3. He did not have the potential to harm my character due to my position in the vehicle. Even if you say "gamemode limitations", realise that I was in the process of stepping out and that during this he had run up to the vehicle, having his weapon potentially pointed at me for such a small period of time, reaction was impossible.

I'm not trying to find a loophole, the rule clearly states that the third requirement is necessary for fearRP to apply.

[Night]

Hi Octagon,

To address the first concern about the FearRP portion of your argument - whilst yes, that's how it's written in the rules and you were right to jump out, but you are still considered under FearRP as that's down to a gamemode restriction. I even clarified this part with HR (namely, @Enzyme) to be certain and he agreed (I've also asked him to respond with his thoughts when he has the time, and I'll wait for that before conclusion). This is how it has always been enforced and thus you are expected to follow FearRP. You could see that he was visibly armed and could very quickly sidestep the bonnet of the car to shoot you if you messed up, and that wouldn't of taken long at all. Due to that, FearRP would still apply there.

Regarding the length of your suspension and blacklist, to start, I wouldn't compare another case to yours as it would be wildly inaccurate. I issued my punishment keeping in mind that you're a reputable member of the community - a Teacher (who's expected to know our rules almost like the back of their hand and promote good levels of roleplay) and that you have over 1000 hours now. I cleared both of the suspension times by Wulf who has responded above.

I'll wait for @Enzyme's comment before conclusion.

[Lord Octagon]

By the time he has his weapon somewhat pointed at me, I have my weapon out on safety - the weapon I pulled when he did not have a clear line of sight.

(As for the teacher part, admins are expected to know the rules yet they receive a verbal warning, especially for a minor first offence)

[Lord Octagon]

I think it's pretty clear here that he wouldn't have been able to harm my character whilst having his attention focused on my partner. These pictures show the lead up to my weapon being pulled out.

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[SirWulf]

We seem to have a different idea of this.

You were nearly in direct line of sight there. One small flick and his shotgun would have been directly trained on you. Those pictures actually do a good job at demonstrating what I've stated above. You were not concealed or undercover, being clearly visable thru a windshield does not count towards that.

There was no line of sight hindrance. As you were a passenger who left the vehicle while the officer had his gun trained on the both of you, you are under FearRP.

Unless the Officer told you to get out of your vehicle, you should remain in the vehicle. And certainly not pull out a weapon while you do exit the vehicle.

[Lord Octagon]

We seem to have a different idea of this.

You were nearly in direct line of sight there.  One small flick and his shotgun would have been directly trained on you.  Those pictures actually do a good job at demonstrating what I've stated above.  You were not concealed or undercover, being clearly visable thru a windshield does not count towards that.  

There was no line of sight hindrance.  As you were a passenger who left the vehicle while the officer had his gun trained on the both of you, you are under FearRP.  

Unless the Officer told you to get out of your vehicle, you should remain in the vehicle.  And certainly not pull out a weapon while you do exit the vehicle.

and is able to harm your character at that moment
Fact of the matter is that he wasn't.



I had plenty of cover to pull out my firearm, he wasn't able to harm my character.

[SirWulf]

And once again, he is able to harm you. A shotgun blast with spread can travel thru glass like that. You are in harm's way.

The fact is. You were breaking FearRP at the time in which you pulled out your weapon. That is not up for debate here. What is on debate is the reduction of your time, which right now I'm very concerned about as you are arguing over things that have already been talked about. This leaves me to believe you would do the exact same thing once you are back in the game.

[Lord Octagon]

And once again, he is able to harm you.  A shotgun blast with spread can travel thru glass like that.  You are in harm's way.

The fact is.  You were breaking FearRP at the time in which you pulled out your weapon.  That is not up for debate here.  What is on debate is the reduction of your time, which right now I'm very concerned about as you are arguing over things that have already been talked about.  This leaves me to believe you would do the exact same thing once you are back in the game.

But the chance of him moving his weapon for the fraction of a second to shoot me was so infinitesimal; all I saw was him being preoccupied with my partner so I seized the opportunity to pull a weapon whilst most of my body was in cover. From what can be seen from the video his weapon was pointing at the side of the car, and from what transpired, with the blocked view it took him a while to react. I don't appreciate the sudden change in topic.

[Lord Octagon]

Any chance of getting an update on this, I'd like to know where we stand and what's next to come from this.

[Night]

Waiting on Enzyme's response before conclusion.

[Enzyme]

As Nightmare and Wulf has said in this appeal, you were under FearRP and there isn't any doubt about this in my eyes. The evidence clearly shows that both occupants of the vehicle are under fearRP, and you are expected to both know and understand this Octagon. There's no doubt about both of you being under fearRP and you've been punished accordingly. There's no reason to reduce or remove any punishment issued, and I'm honestly disappointed of your actions in this case. I expected someone like yourself to know the difference between blatantly breaking fearRP and not.

You were inside a vehicle. You had a person standing outside your vehicle aiming a shotgun at you. You clearly broke fearRP. It's as simple as that really.

[Night]

Unban/unblacklist request denied.

As Enzyme stated, you were clearly under FearRP and should of still acted as if you were under gunpoint despite what you may of thought at the time. A couple of feet away and Ivir could of very easily shot and killed you. This has been enforced since inception of the rule, and what happened here is no exception to that.

Thanks for the appeal.

Cheers,
[L²:M] Nightmare
Server Moderation Team