[Loaf]

Hi all,

I just wanted to discuss an issue that has come to light recently, which has to do with staff punishment for in-character situations that could be resolved through role play rather than OOC punishment.

One such example is excessive force within the police force. Why should something where an officer unjustly kills someone NOT be handled by a sergeant or bureaucrat in the government, as it's done in real life? Why should staff get involved in something that could be acted out as an in-character situation? I understand if some cop is running around shooting at random civilians, but for a cop who get a little jumpy in a tense situation? Personally, I don't find much sense in it. I'd rather let the sergeant issue a citation or demotion.

This applies to any crime where a large party is involved. I personally think that staff should become a little more passive when it comes to shit like that, only stepping in when they absolutely have to.

Thoughts?

[Memeimrich]

I feel ya. I think cops have it a little too light. Basically free arsenals that outdo and prevent most all petty criminals. Not only that but they can arrest you for anything as all arrests are in character. But what can you do about that? Basically nothing. If you're a criminal and a cop arrests you for literally nothing, you can't do anything about it except halt your RP and go about it like a normal citizen "ought" to. You can't give him street justice and put a couple rounds into the back of his head, an admin will snatch you right on up. I believe a lot of the times staff hold back the RP on this server.

[Loaf]

That's not my point. My point is to let RP happen, and that staff shouldn't get involved so fast.

[Hungames]

The trick is let a prisoner punch you once, then u can beat them to death since they assaulted u first

[Memeimrich]

That's not my point. My point is to let RP happen, and that staff shouldn't get involved so fast.

I know it's not your point, but it's relevant.

[Nev]

I'm all for minimizing the involvement of staff in role-play situations, however in order to allow for that we need to implement a system that can be balanced and fair.

In the example provided, which revolves around an officer using excessive force in a situation that may not necessarily call for it, this is simply not possible with the current way the server runs. In the time being, if this were to be openly allowed, you'd see an influx of individuals in law enforcement positions resorting to using excessive force rather than attempting to subdue a subject with non-lethal measures because killing someone can be so much more satisfying and in the current time there is no real IC consequences besides the risk of a /demote which again has zero impact on a person because it simply takes them out of the position temporarily. The solution to this has already been put out by myself and that is regarding permanent characters which would bring in the ability to not just create a proper police ranking system and designate certain characters as certain positions formally (not just a /job change) but also bringing an ability to establish actual IC consequences that have substance. For example an officer who did happen to use excessive force would actually face an investigation by some form of Internal Affairs and could tarnish their reputation and standing as an officer of the law. Being demoted from their position wouldn't just be a 5 minute cool-down but could instead have a much longer impact that could be a suspension from the force for days/weeks or even permanently depending on the actions and the result of the investigation along with other consequences such as possible imprisonment that isn't just a mere 15 minute sentence, but rather would be something that could lock their character up for days.

Actual meaningful RP cannot exist on a server with characters that are temporary and consequences that are meaningless. It's the reason you don't see people role-playing as IA, lawyers, judges, bail bonds, etcetera. If there's no actual foundation in the game-mode that supports these RP's then they won't exist. People aren't going to do CourtRP when a person can get in and out of prison in 7.5 minutes with a donation package.

[Wesley Lawrence]

Excessive use of force would (and should) be dealt with by a supervising member in the police department or someone that is higher than aforementioned. CSI/whatever investigator is on the case are there to re-create the scene and investigate what went down and to show whether or not force has been correctly applied or not. At the worst, the officer(s) in question would be stripped from their position and fired from the force or sentenced to jail time.

I agree with what you wrote by the way, Loaf. Staff in previous communities weren't so close on what happened in roleplay until shit really hit the fan. I am not saying everyone here does that, but some can take two steps back and watch something play out.

[Memeimrich]

Another little thing I'd like to say; staff often make things quite uncomfortable. My only blacklists have come from admin interpretations of situations that were perfectly within the rules. It can be quite intimidating with them interrupting your RP to confirm facts between both parties even when they haven't been called or knowing that they could punish you at any second because they don't like your actions that are, in fact, within the rules.

[roxas]

Actual meaningful RP cannot exist on a server with characters that are temporary and consequences that are meaningless. It's the reason you don't see people role-playing as IA, lawyers, judges, bail bonds, etcetera. If there's no actual foundation in the game-mode that supports these RP's then they won't exist. People aren't going to do CourtRP when a person can get in and out of prison in 7.5 minutes with a donation package.

^This

Plus the fact that court RP doesn't make any sense at all because right now there is no way to provide evidences. You handcuff a person? - His weapon is gone. No way to "confiscate" or investigate it. (e.g. finger prints). Found a blood sample on a body bag as detective that could eventually prove the suspect innocent or guilty? - No way to check and compare the sample with the suspects blood. So basically irrelevant.

Court RP is just 2 parties - both be like: "No, he's wrong!" - "No, HE's wrong!!" - "NO, I am right! He's wrong" - [...] and so on.

But b2t: A demotion doesn't have that much of an impact. So staff needs to do what they do.

[Overlewd]

It COULD be resolved through IC means, but will it? Extremely unlikely. The only person who would bother complaining in most scenarios is the person who got killed, and they cannot complain ICly due to NLR.

If by some unlikely chance someone saw the event unfold and bothered reporting it to the sergeant or president, the most likely outcome is that they won't be bothered enough to investigate the report, the person will receive a warning, or the report be dismissed due to lack of evidence.

So, most of the time the person will go completely unpunished. And in the best (worst) case scenario they get demoted, which isnt so bad either.

If we left this to be dealt with IC means, too many cops will shoot to kill and use excessive force not for any RP reasons but just because it's easier to do so and there are no consequences for it.

[Blazing]

I don't think this is such a big issue in itself; as others have hinted, it is more about a deterrent than about the actual punishment.

However, it does bring a greater point which is defining the rules in a more specific way. There are a lot of grey areas in the rules which staff interpret differently, and this is a wider issue which needs to be discussed. I know that I've spoken to various staff members in the past about such issues and experienced that they all interpreted things differently.

[ForceGhost]

If we left this to be dealt with IC means, too many cops will shoot to kill and use excessive force not for any RP reasons but just because it's easier to do so and there are no consequences for it.

I don't think it that it's because it's easier to do, I think it's because there isn't an alternative. If we could shoot out tyres or vehicles stalled when they are pitted then it makes sense, but right now the only way to end things like pursuits is via spike strips (REP locked and only work 10% of the time due to the terrain in Rockford.) or damaging the vehicle to the point where it can longer function, which will most likely result in your vehicle being totalled.

There's been numerous suggestions to remedy these issues such as VCMods wheel damage system or making Police vehicles with bull bars not take damage from the front all of which seem to have been buried.

Also rules that are open to interpretation or not actually written down are bad for situations like this.

The rule that states that:

12.12b - You can shoot at fleeing vehicles only if the drivers are armed and dangerous or if they are clearly a threat to citizen/officers with the way they are driving. 

But if a the officer truly believes at the time that he is in danger then is he not right? Wouldn't it be better for this to be dealt with in character with a demotion and counselling? By adding rules like this you're kind of extinguishing any kind of RP before it starts. Sure, if an officer is going around randomly shooting people then it's already RDM and FailRP, but killing someone because you, at the time, truly believed they were a threat seems like a realistic scenario that shouldn't be punished by staff but by in-character means.

I was also told by a member of the team that there's a:

5 minute grace period between a law being made and officers enforcing that law.

But where's this written down? In 300 hours I've never heard anything like that so I decided to ask another couple of staff members who gave me the responses:

There's actually a 10 minute grace period in between

and from a different staff member:

I've never heard of anything like that

Shouldn't this be a simple task that the staff team can vote on? There's so many grey areas that could easily be solved by a private staff pole and a 30 second rule edit that just never seem to get done.

[Cooli]

well you can always try to rp it out if both parties agree to not involve staff. Just inform the other player that he/she has broken a rule and should pay attention next time because he/she could get into trouble.

[Soviethooves]

If we left this to be dealt with IC means, too many cops will shoot to kill and use excessive force not for any RP reasons but just because it's easier to do so and there are no consequences for it.

I don't think it that it's because it's easier to do, I think it's because there isn't an alternative. If we could shoot out tyres or vehicles stalled when they are pitted then it makes sense, but right now the only way to end things like pursuits is via spike strips (REP locked and only work 10% of the time due to the terrain in Rockford.) or damaging the vehicle to the point where it can longer function, which will most likely result in your vehicle being totalled.

There's been numerous suggestions to remedy these issues such as VCMods wheel damage system or making Police vehicles with bull bars not take damage from the front all of which seem to have been buried.

Agreed. It's honestly a simple fix if we implemented the VCmod update, but I don't see that happening soon to be honest.

Also rules that are open to interpretation or not actually written down are bad for situations like this.

The rule that states that:

12.12b - You can shoot at fleeing vehicles only if the drivers are armed and dangerous or if they are clearly a threat to citizen/officers with the way they are driving. 

But if a the officer truly believes at the time that he is in danger then is he not right? Wouldn't it be better for this to be dealt with in character with a demotion and counselling? By adding rules like this you're kind of extinguishing any kind of RP before it starts. Sure, if an officer is going around randomly shooting people then it's already RDM and FailRP, but killing someone because you, at the time, truly believed they were a threat seems like a realistic scenario that shouldn't be punished by staff but by in-character means.

Agreed. The rule leaves room for interpretation. So if an officer feels in danger and can give at least a slight bit of proof, he/she is technically working within the rules.

I was also told by a member of the team that there's a:

5 minute grace period between a law being made and officers enforcing that law.

But where's this written down? In 300 hours I've never heard anything like that so I decided to ask another couple of staff members who gave me the responses:

There's actually a 10 minute grace period in between

and from a different staff member:

I've never heard of anything like that

Shouldn't this be a simple task that the staff team can vote on? There's so many grey areas that could easily be solved by a private staff pole and a 30 second rule edit that just never seem to get done.

Their honestly shouldn't be a grace period. It's a law that is publicly announced. I've never heard of this grace period before.

Also, we can't fix all the grey areas with just a few simple votes, unless you want our rule to go from over 100 to over 200. We need to drop our amount of rules to a small, simple list that covers the basics and allows players to play how they wanna play within reason.

Anyways, on the subject as a whole, if I see someone using excessive force, I'm going to intervene. It's my job as a staff member to enforce our rules and educate the ones who break them. So, if I see someone with no experience and new to the server breaking a rule, I'm gonna inform him of what he is doing (Unless he has malicious intent). If it's an EXPERIENCED player breaking our rules, I'm not gonna try to explain to him why what he did was against our rules. They've been with us for a while. They've had more than enough time to read our rules.

Leaving up to player intervention IC will not work as Nevy said, we don't really have any meaning to punishments or death in this gamemode (I think is what he said). If we be lenient and allow players to deal with it, 50% will actually do something, while the other 50% will ignore it either because they don't want to deal with it, are friends with the person, or they just don't see a reason to do anything as it won't really harm him if he does nothing.

[Soviethooves]

I feel ya. I think cops have it a little too light. Basically free arsenals that outdo and prevent most all petty criminals.

Cops will always have an advantage to most. They're meant to be equipped for the common criminal in their area.

Not only that but they can arrest you for anything as all arrests are in character. But what can you do about that? Basically nothing. If you're a criminal and a cop arrests you for literally nothing, you can't do anything about it except halt your RP and go about it like a normal citizen "ought" to.

Agreed. I usually try to intervene if it seems a bit fishy, but due to our policy on it, I can't do much to stop players that just do it to piss people off.

You can't give him street justice and put a couple rounds into the back of his head, an admin will snatch you right on up. I believe a lot of the times staff hold back the RP on this server.

And that's because of our ridiculous book of rules. Try to do something and their is always a counter to it. We just need to strip down to the basics and allow players to do what they wish within reason. I see no reason to stop a player for getting revenge on a cop who put him away for 15 minutes for Jaywalking.