[goigle]

Your Name: [C3] Goigle

Issued by: [L²] BlackDog

Blacklist ID: 70171

Server: 4b1

Why should you be unblacklisted?: 
I just wanted to restate my case in a clear manner. I understand blackdog contacted other staff, but he did so before getting certain necessary clarifications from me which I feel like make a difference in the case.
I also think another point of confusion might be that the staff BD contacted might not have known this was an actual clan, not just people listing themselves as FBI (which was going on earlier today), but that is just a conjecture.
These are the search warrant rules:

10.1 Do not randomly search a property; you must have probable cause. Some examples include:
10.1a Gunfire heard coming from within the property;
10.1b Criminal activity visible on the property;
10.1c A suspect on the property;
10.1d Contraband heard or visible on the property.
Going by that, in an RP sense that means those would be the judicial requirements for police to get a search warrant or something to that regard.

At the time of the police raid, open carry of weapons was legal.

Before the raid, there were a few presidents. There was one who allowed us to work and gave us passes, etc. Then there was one who wanted revoke our passes and possibly arrest us (he wanted to bring us all to one location). We decided to not meet with him but we also did not operate during that timeframe.
Then, another president came into power and we were going to meet with him. We set up a meeting, but he very quickly is replaced with another (the same who wanted to revoke our passes) president who seems to suspiciously want all of our men to meet with him. I met with him with just myself and somebody else. He said he wanted everybody, and I said that's not going to happen. He said if we didn't, he would revoke our passes. I said OK, that's fine, and RPed handing him my government documents and left (and he of course actually revoked the pass). I never said we were going to continue operating, and we just stayed in industrial basically doing nothing.

Sometime later, basically the entire police force except SWAT is outside. I got to the front with an AK74 on my back (open carry on private property was legal at the time). I ask why they are here and the sergeant at the time (I believe it was Sours) immediately jumps to the weapon on my back and my gas mask, both of which I mention are perfectly legal on private property. I again ask what they wanted and they refused to offer a reason but kept asking me to step outside. I knew that if I stepped outside they'd either separate me and arrest me illegally or use the fact that our gate opens/closes slowly against us and rush in, so I tell them to leave unless they have a reason, otherwise I would not open the gate.

At the time they did not have a warrant.
They did not ask to see inside or to be let inside.

I think maybe 5-10 minutes later (it seemed like a long time, they were standing outside the gate the whole time), they got a warrant and they broke open the front gate. I knew they had no legal ground to attack us or even investigate us (there was nothing to investigate), much less get a warrant.
The way I saw it at the time of attack (I realize others might not see this) was a political powerplay of the new administration to silence any enemies or people who might oppose him. There is no other reason for them to have attacked us - had they asked to see inside to maybe make sure we didn't have any prisoners or contraband or anything of that nature, I would have opened the gate.

Normally I wouldn't mention that because it sounds dumb, but when I asked BD what the warrant reason even was in the first place he said it was for "FBI raid" which means the president already knew about it and likely ordered it, probably for the reasons I mentioned above. To me, that makes it pretty clear that he wanted to attack us. It wasn't "FBI investigation" or "making sure the FBI is not operating", it was a raid. We responded just like any government going through a tense administration change would, which is to hold our ground and use weapons to defend ourselves.
The president at the time was not a dictator, but should he decide to be one (or enact harsher laws), he might have wanted to prevent something like what happened in Turkey:

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Obviously, instead of the military we're a federal law enforcement agency/clan, but it's close enough for city RP as there is no military and sometimes citizens even overthrow the government because of how armed they are. (also, to be 100% clear, we had no plans to raid the president or attack the police)

ALSO:
(Correct me if I'm wrong)
When we got on today, there was another group of FBI people. That happens sometimes and we always let them RP in peace. They stopped for some reason, but I am 99% certain the president that ordered the raid was one of them. At the very least, I know for a fact one of those other FBI guys was working with the president.
He also consistently mentioned in broadcasts that we were the "fake FBI" which lines up with that.

Finally, this isn't the first time we've been raided by the police (however, it is the first time it was by a president who was not a dictator). For whatever reason, dictators of the past tended to ban us from the city and for whatever reason that leads to us being raided by the police in the MTL. Staff have seen those situations in the past and allowed us to defend ourselves with weapons.
Evidence: n/a,

[Limelight Gaming]

The staff-members have received your unblacklist-request, goigle.

It will take a while for it to be reviewed.

[BlackDog]

(Your clan lists itself as being the Federal Bureau of Investigation, it lists itself as a governmental force, which is why it was declared you opening fire on local police serving a warrant on the facility for it acting as an unofficial governmental force.

(You we're not listed in the laws as being affiliated in anyway with the local government, and they had made it clear you we're classed as such via broadcasts, you in no way disbanded after the fact or shut down your facilitys, they remained open, fortified, and locked)

Had you complied with the search, and talked to them like members of the FBI would, rather than telling them "No you are not getting in" none of this would have occured.

Your reasoning to me was that: Paraphrase: Because we are federal, and they are local law enforcement, the FBI would kill them if they tried to enter federal property in such a way because, (In your eyes) the warrant was fake or invalid (Which it wasnt)

I dont think i have ever heard of a situation where police would kill other police simply because of their positions in the force and hierarchy.

Regardless of the reasons, why it occured, and who did what when, you we're at the time RPing as the Federal Bureau of Investigation, a branch of the federal government, THIS is why you opening fire on the local police is so baffling and why you got in trouble, you we're RPing as the FBI, you WERE the FBI, thus why in gods name would you kill local police doing their jobs like some petty street gang?

If you felt a rule was being violated you should have called in staff rather nearly murdering half the police force)

[goigle]

(Your clan lists itself as being the Federal Bureau of Investigation, it lists itself as a governmental force, which is why it was declared you opening fire on local police serving a warrant on the facility for it acting as an unofficial governmental force.

I addressed this in my post.

(You we're not listed in the laws as being affiliated in anyway with the local government, and they had made it clear you we're classed as such via broadcasts, you in no way disbanded after the fact or shut down your facilitys, they remained open, fortified, and locked)

Were they open or fortified and locked? The president never ordered us to shut down our facilities. He said we could not operate as government agency, but theoretically we could offer intelligence services like stratfor. There are private companies with federal in their name.

Had you complied with the search, and talked to them like members of the FBI would, rather than telling them "No you are not getting in" none of this would have occured.

Please read my post again. They never asked to come in, they asked me to step out. From the OP:

There is no other reason for them to have attacked us - had they asked to see inside to maybe make sure we didn't have any prisoners or contraband or anything of that nature, I would have opened the gate.

Your reasoning to me was that: Paraphrase: Because we are federal, and they are local law enforcement, the FBI would kill them if they tried to enter federal property in such a way because, (In your eyes) the warrant was fake or invalid (Which it wasnt)

That's because you kept cutting me off and wouldn't let me complete a sentence while we were in game, and so I gave up and posted this as it's easier to discuss on the forums.
If you don't let someone finish a sentence then you're not going to understand what they're saying correctly.

I dont think i have ever heard of a situation where police would kill other police simply because of their positions in the force and hierarchy.
This is such a gross oversimplification I'm not even gonna dignify it with a response
Regardless of the reasons, why it occured, and who did what when, you we're at the time RPing as the Federal Bureau of Investigation, a branch of the federal government, THIS is why you opening fire on the local police is so baffling and why you got in trouble, you we're RPing as the FBI, you WERE the FBI, thus why in gods name would you kill local police doing their jobs like some petty street gang?

It's kind of a gray area, as you yourself have said to us many times. Technically (according to explanations you've given me in the past while RPing as the same clan), we're a 3rd party contractor because of how clans work and how the rules of the server are.
Again, that's also not our reason for opening fire. Also, in extremely similar situations, we have been told this is OK. This is the first time it's happened in a while because for obvious reasons we try to avoid fighting with the government.
A petty street gang also would have inflicted more casualties - we intentionally limited the fight (I don't think any police died, maybe one). We could have put up a stronger fight if we were actually interested in fighting, we were hoping the police would just lose interest and leave.

If you felt a rule was being violated you should have called in staff rather nearly murdering half the police force)

When did I say there was a rule violated by the police?

[Dick]

-Involved, Police Captain-

I will summarize the situation.

It all started when your convoy was returning to your FBI headquarters when two of your vehicles went though a red light. I turned my lights on and parked outside your facility and waited fro someones attention, I asked to speak to a supervisor who was holding a AWM and Gas Mask. He asked "You had a question for me?" and I replied with more than one question as they were answered I nodded and you began to wander away as the situation started.

I requesting two officers that were close by to come with me and the other requested a warrant ICly from the real estate agent to ask who the owner of it was and warranted the place for search. Myself and the two officers behind me wandered into the facility unarmed as they began to shoot directly at us and that is when the fight occured.

We only entered as you pretty much refused to answer the questions we wished to ask. For a Federal Government, why would you fire upon Unarmed police units with a warrant signed by the President himself?

The question about how we didn't asked for your "assistance" as you put it for exploring the facility is because we didn't want ot search the facility. We wanted to speak to the Supervisior who decided to say fuck you and wandered away from us which the search warrant was placed. We simply wanted to ask why you was breaking traffic laws and going though a red light however you fired upon us.

[goigle]

-Involved, Police Captain-

I will summarize the situation.

It all started when your convoy was returning to your FBI headquarters when two of your vehicles went though a red light. I turned my lights on and parked outside your facility and waited fro someones attention, I asked to speak to a supervisor who was holding a AWM and Gas Mask. He asked "You had a question for me?" and I replied with more than one question as they were answered I nodded and you began to wander away as the situation started.

I requesting two officers that were close by to come with me and the other requested a warrant ICly from the real estate agent to ask who the owner of it was and warranted the place for search. Myself and the two officers behind me wandered into the facility unarmed as they began to shoot directly at us and that is when the fight occured.

We only entered as you pretty much refused to answer the questions we wished to ask. For a Federal Government, why would you fire upon Unarmed police units with a warrant signed by the President himself?

The question about how we didn't asked for your "assistance" as you put it for exploring the facility is because we didn't want ot search the facility. We wanted to speak to the Supervisior who decided to say fuck you and wandered away from us which the search warrant was placed. We simply wanted to ask why you was breaking traffic laws and going though a red light however you fired upon us.

I don't think they ran through a red light, but if they did, all you had to do was mention that. I didn't "begin to wander away," I stated something and ended the conversation and left. You decided not to provide a reason for having the entire police force there. I asked multiple times for you to provide a reason, which in any traffic stop is the first thing police say. Keep in mind: You called the entire police force for a red light violation. I understand you and BD may not be American, but in America, no PD would do that (most would actually just let it go due to liability). Whether or not you request officers is irrelevant, there were already 3-4 (75% of the PD) at the scene.

The first person I lethally engaged (I believe a man in a suit with a shotgun) was not unarmed when I engaged. Whether or not the warrant was signed by the president is irrelevant because as I addressed in the OP, warrants can easily be lied in. Per server rules, the president is not at the scene and is also not in the know.
Nobody I engaged was unarmed. Logs will show that. I was also the first shot, and BD and logs will both confirm that. That means anyone who was unarmed was breaking server rules. I can see guns when people engaged me inside the sniper tower, outside when they are moving, it's not so easy. It's not my responsibility to nitpick between the people with guns and the people without during a raid.
NOBODY I SAW (95% OF THE POLICE FORCE, THERE IS 1 ENTRANCE IN MTL) WHO WAS IN THE FBI FACILITY PAST THE FENCE EQUIPPED A WEAPON AFTER ENTERING, ANYONE POSTING AFTER DO NOT LIE, LYING IN THE COURTHOUSE IS A SERIOUS OFFENSE

Honestly, I don't want to break any rules (and I don't think I am, because no one was unarmed so no one was stupid), but what kind of dumbass cop is going to raid a facility with a search warrant unarmed? That's not even a rookie mistake, that's a suicidal mistake.

I don't know what you're talking about in regards to 'assistance' in exploring the facility, as in my OP I was talking about searching through the facility which if you were investigating us you would not need assistance in because that would compromise the investigation.
 
Through US law and constitution (which, if BlackDog wants to quote our clan thread, we swear an oath to uphold), you are legally required to tell us any crimes we have committed and we cannot be required to testify against ourselves. That can be done through saying "Hi, my name is Lieutenant Sours with the Evocity Police department. I need to talk with <insert names or owners of plates X and Y> about running red lights." Had you said that, I would have gladly gotten them for you. I don't remember seeing a red light for us as I remember us trying to follow every little law to avoid this specific situation.

I don't remember saying "fuck off," but at the same time I can see myself saying that after cops failed to state why they were unnecessarily responding code 3 (and I'm sorry if I sound rude, but responding Code 3 before we open carry weapons is balls to the wall stupid, especially for a traffic violation). I would like either logs or screenshot evidence to prove that.

[BlackDog]

Its late so im tired and cant read all this wall right now, but one thing i noticed

" I was also the first shot, and BD and logs will both confirm that. "

You were not the first shot, YOU shot first, is what the logs showed, you have it backwards and misunderstood what i had said.

YOU shot them FIRST, not the otherway around

[goigle]

Its late so im tired and cant read all this wall right now, but one thing i noticed

" I was also the first shot, and BD and logs will both confirm that. "

You were not the first shot, YOU shot first, is what the logs showed, you have it backwards and misunderstood what i had said.

YOU shot them FIRST, not the otherway around

That's a typo, what I meant to say is I was the first who shot. What I meant by saying that is my bullet is the first bullet, so whoever it hit is the first person who was engaged, and that the first person I engaged was armed, so it follows that the only people who were engaged in combat were armed.

My apologies for the typo, I am tired too, let's continue this discussion in the morning.

Edit:
Ohhhhh, I see what I meant.

I meant akin to "the first shot of the war"

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[7] as in I fired the first shot. It's most certainly awkward phrasing, my bad.

[Dick]

[goigle]

[goigle]

Also, I have another question that just came to mind:

If this is about 2 red light tickets, why was the search warrant reason "FBI raid," and not something like "attempting to locate suspects" or something of that nature? To me, that still looks like the president sent you guys after us.

[Dick]

Also, I have another question that just came to mind:

If this is about 2 red light tickets, why was the search warrant reason "FBI raid," and not something like "attempting to locate suspects" or something of that nature? To me, that still looks like the president sent you guys after us.

The warrant that -you- are talking about was on 26' because he locked himself into a room. That when the situation turned into a firefight and the President knew that the "FBI Raid" understood as the current situation as what was going on. Do you have any evidence or have any previous information that stated that? Because right now, you are simply talking one search warrant at the very end of the fire fight as the whole ideal..

[Wesley Lawrence]

We already had a conversation and you refused to actually talk to me. I didn't ignore you, you ignored ALL of my questions after I answered a few of yours.

All I remember from it is that we asked you (or whoever was at the gate) some legitimate questions which you guys did not want to answer. Keep in mind that I was not present at the gate closely enough to hear the whole conversation. Instead, the person at the gate who barely spoke to us upon us asking questions, started walking away and not returning for a period of time whatsoever. This gave me time to roleplay me calling the estate agent to request information on who was renting the MTL facility and a search warrant was being made in the process of that.

A search warrant was given and yes, we did walk in with firearms out (which is what I do 90% of the times executing warrants), and as soon as we entered, Sours received the first shot coming from your side.

Do logs log if someone has a weapon out? I remember seeing weapons and additionally, if you want to show that you are unarmed, crouching and running around and taking cover and moving tactically like you are about to take someone down is not the way (which is why we opened fire). If 3 of you walked in, unarmed, together, I would not have opened fire.

We were not moving around 'tactically' when we were starting to execute the search warrant. However, we did start moving around tactically and crouching behind your vehicles when we got shot at first. We never opened fire first, the subjects holding up in the guard tower did. Either way, it's no excuse for special agents to open fire on LEOs that are uniformed (except for Sours, but the other two LEOs being in uniform makes up for that).

[goigle]

The warrant that -you- are talking about was on 26' because he locked himself into a room. That when the situation turned into a firefight and the President knew that the "FBI Raid" understood as the current situation as what was going on. Do you have any evidence or have any previous information that stated that? Because right now, you are simply talking one search warrant at the very end of the fire fight as the whole ideal..

I asked BlackDog what the original search warrant was for and he said "FBI Raid."

[goigle]

All I remember from it is that we asked you (or whoever was at the gate) some legitimate questions which you guys did not want to answer. Keep in mind that I was not present at the gate closely enough to hear the whole conversation. Instead, the person at the gate who barely spoke to us upon us asking questions, started walking away and not returning for a period of time whatsoever. This gave me time to roleplay me calling the estate agent to request information on who was renting the MTL facility and a search warrant was being made in the process of that.

A search warrant was given and yes, we did walk in with firearms out (which is what I do 90% of the times executing warrants), and as soon as we entered, Sours received the first shot coming from your side.

I wasn't the original person at the gate, I was called there by whoever was there first (I think Dan)

We were not moving around 'tactically' when we were starting to execute the search warrant. However, we did start moving around tactically and crouching behind your vehicles when we got shot at first. We never opened fire first, the subjects holding up in the guard tower did. Either way, it's no excuse for special agents to open fire on LEOs that are uniformed (except for Sours, but the other two LEOs being in uniform makes up for that).

I never said you opened fire first.
Also, at the time, technically we're a 3rd party*** unemployed contractor.