[Nebula]

 I request a supervising administrator review this case


Your Name:  Nebula

Issued by: [L²]Soviethooves

Blacklist ID:  70155

Server: Evocity_v4b1

Why should you be unblacklisted?: There is no clear Rule, that states that Citizens are always law adiding, as Soviethooves said in our discussion. And because of that, i dont really see that my Blacklist is valid. How am i supposed to know that citizens are always law abiding when there is no clear rule? Just beacuse it has been always done this way.

I admit, i ran from Police as they where discussing something. None of them had a weapon out. I drove away because i did not wanted to pay a fine. Then the end of pursuit. I got shot (i dont really see why i got shot) but after i respawned Soviet asked me:
(I dont have the first question, because i closed my game and forgot to make screenshots. But i copied the PMs into a steam chat, just the first one not, but i can remember how it kind of was)

(PM) [L²] Soviethooves: Why did you ran away from Police with job Citizen?


I also would like to point out at the end, that most of the blacklist for People who ran from Police as citizens are from Soviethooves (Just to point that out, has actually nothing to do with the rest)

Evidence: Logs GMT 00:57 AM

(PM) To [L²] Soviethooves: I see many People running from police as citizens
(PM) [L²] Soviethooves: Then you need to report them.
(PM) To [L²] Soviethooves: But.. I never heared that you cant run from police as
Citizen.
(PM) [L²] Soviethooves: You will be given a 4 Hour Vehicle Blacklist. Citizens (Who are
law abiding) do not run from police because fo assumptions. You follow the law, not run
from it.
(!) (ADMIN): [L²] Soviethooves took 'v' access (Vehicles) from Nebula for 4 hours and 0
minute for reason
(!) (ADMIN): 'Running from police as Citizen for assuming a fine would be given.'.
(PM) To [L²] Soviethooves: alright.. i didnt knew that citzens arent allowed to do that
(OOC) [L²:RP] Festive Rhys #TeamHeav: Lel
(PM) [L²] Soviethooves: Remember, law abiding means that you must follow the law,
even when you don't like the POSSIBLE outcome.
(PM) To [L²] Soviethooves: Well.. What rule states that ?
Player [C3] Goigle (STEAM_0:1:35700982) has disconnected (Disconnect by user.).
(PM) [L²] Soviethooves: Rule 9.6
Prop session saved, 45 props found!
(PM) To [L²] Soviethooves: So it is techniclly against the rules to woodcut as citizen,
because a normal citizen would gain money by working in a shop ?
(PM) [L²] Soviethooves: Technically no. A citizen is a law-abiding member of society. If
there is nothing unlawful about the act, they may do so (withing reason)
(PM) To [L²] Soviethooves: Well.. certanly not all Citizens are law abiding
(PM) [L²] Soviethooves: On our servers, the job means Law-Abiding.
(PM) [L²] Soviethooves: We aren't real life.
(PM) To [L²] Soviethooves: There is no rule that states that cittzens are always law
abiding, i dont make a msitake there
 (PM) To [L²] Soviethooves: There is no rule that states that cittzens are always law
abiding, i dont make a msitake there
(PM) [L²] Soviethooves: There is. It's the job title.
Prop session saved, 18 props found!
(PM) [L²] Soviethooves: It is server-wide recognized. Why do you think we make you
change your job if you want to commit somethign unlawful?
(PM) To [L²] Soviethooves: The Job title is just Citizen, its nto called Law-Abiding
citizen
Player [C3] Goigle (STEAM_0:1:35700982) has joined the game.
(PM) To [L²] Soviethooves: Because i think, its something very different from mugging
somebody with a gun than running from Police
(PM) [L²] Soviethooves: Sure. Anyways, think what you wish, but sadly that is how it
has been on the servers since we founded LL.
(PM) To [L²] Soviethooves: I never saw somebody getting punished for running from
Police as citizen though
(PM) [L²] Soviethooves: Yup, well now we are realising not everyone IRL runs from
police now do they? Again, aregue as you wish, I'm done.
(PM) To [L²] Soviethooves: Yes, not everyone. That means some people do and most
do not.
(PM) [L²] Soviethooves:  Again, argue as you wish, I'm done.

[Limelight Gaming]

The staff-members have received your unblacklist-request, Nebula.

It will take a while for it to be reviewed.

[SirWulf]

First of all, Soviet is by far not the only one that punishes Citizens that break the laws. It is an established fact that they are law abiding. That is why we require Citizens to change jobs, Meth Cook, Mugger, Street Racer, Lowlife, etc to represent who you are trying to RP. If you intend to do something that a standard citizen wouldn't do, you change your job.

You do admit to running from the law after a traffic stop to avoid a small fine. It seems to me that the reason for the BL was also a result of your arguing. Instead of learning from it, you are challenging it, stating that others do it, so it must be fine. Many others break FearRP, RDM, CDM, etc. Does that make it ok? No. It does not.

[Soviethooves]

SirWulf beat me to the punch. As I explained in the PM's, Citizens are considered law-abiding due to our requirement for specifying criminal actions.

Want to rob facilities? Robber, Cat Burglar, etc.

Wanna race in the streets and run from cops for a kick out of it? Street Racer or Adrenaline Junkie.

Wanna deal in low life criminal actions? Mugger, Poor Thief, the list goes on.

When you are Citizen, you're a blank slate that either needs to be filled, or needs to be a regular member of society, which by majority, follow laws and comply with law enforcement.

[Nebula]

I think you both dont quite get the Point

Its not okay that i can break a Rule, because others do. But there is no rule that statest that Citzens are alawys law-Abiding.

The name is just called "Citizen" & not "Law-Abiding Citizen"
There isnt statesd anywhere that Citizens arent allowed to break the law.
By that logic, all People with job name Citizen who break the Speed Limit or run over a Red Light needs to be Punished too, just beacause they broke a Rule and somehow Citizens needs to be always law-abiding, even that there is nowhere i get this information from that Citizens are always law-abiding.

When you are Citizen, you're a blank slate that either needs to be filled, or needs to be a regular member of society, which by majority, follow laws and comply with law enforcement.

Again, what Rule states that me, as a Citizen cant break any Laws ?

The Point i am making this BL is not, "because other People do it aswell"
Its because i get punished for a Rule that does not even exsits.

Just beacuse it has been since the start of LL that Citizens are Law-Abiding, doesnt mean that everybody knows that.
How am i (or even a new player) supposed to know, that Citizens arent allowed to run from cops in Traffic stops, just beacuse they need to be law abiding (And there is nowhere i could get that information).

[Soviethooves]

9.6: You must roleplay your job accurately (Acting like special forces as Citizen)

Also, you can run from police as Citizen, but you need a solid reason. If there is an officer chasing you and you KNOW he's corrupt, you can book it, but you can't run off of assumptions or guessing. You'd be surprised to hear that most players enjoy it when you pull over for a little traffic stop RP and don't have to call in a pursuit because tou THOUGHT you MAY get fined.

It's the same reason we don't allow players to kos or place players under fearp if they see their friends being arrested or cops outside their house. Wanna know why? Because without knowing the situation for their side, you are ignoring the roleplay of the situation and deciding to end the situation early by doing what's easier and less RP involved.

[Nebula]

9.6: You must roleplay your job accurately (Acting like special forces as Citizen)

Also, you can run from police as Citizen, but you need a solid reason. If there is an officer chasing you and you KNOW he's corrupt, you can book it, but you can't run off of assumptions or guessing. You'd be surprised to hear that most players enjoy it when you pull over for a little traffic stop RP and don't have to call in a pursuit because tou THOUGHT you MAY get fined.

It's the same reason we don't allow players to kos or place players under fearp if they see their friends being arrested or cops outside their house. Wanna know why? Because without knowing the situation for their side, you are ignoring the roleplay of the situation and deciding to end the situation early by doing what's easier and less RP involved.

I want to say something about that Rule..
There is nowhere listed how you need to play citizen! That is whati am trying to say the whole time..

And why are you brining the RP aspect now in? It feels for me that you kind of ran out of arguments and just try to throw stuff at me tbh.

[SirWulf]

There isn't an argument there, he is just trying to explain it better for you.

Citizens do often fall under the category of minor traffic violations a lot in the real world, as do they in the game. As such, speeding, improper lane signals, etc are acceptable to a point. But what Soviet is saying is that simply running from the police for what could have been a simple verbal warning from the officer is by far the norm of a Citizen, that is more something a wanted criminal or someone of ill-intent would do.

Now, as for the rules. This is simple fact. If we are going to go into extreme detail of every single thing, our 5 page list of rules would balloon to 20 or so. Is that what you want? A lot of rules are what is known as 'common sense rules', rules that are in place that are asked of in a normal roleplaying experience. Anything outside of that we ask for the player to be more clear about. And, as mentioned above, a normal Citizen would not run from the police just because they would rather risk the lives of others over a small fine.

[Dan]

A was a part of the chase.
The police sergeant at the time was in pursuit of you, but ended up crashing into a pole. Once he stopped answering on radio, I saw your truck matching the license plate in the city. While I was chasing you you to corleones, I radioed for spikes at the corleone tunnel. An officer was waiting for you at the end so of the tunnel with his car on the left side of the road and spikes set on the right. Instead of you running into the spikes, you ran full-force into the other officer's car. You we're such a danger to us, we shot you. I really don't think an citizen think a citizen would run from the police in a semi and plow into a cop car going 50 with a 7 ton truck. And just a side note soviet had to come and get the truck and the FPIU unstuck after the collision

[Soviethooves]

Denied

Closing Notes: There is no way we can define each rule specifically, as SirWulf stated. Players will always interpret rules and job titles differently, but in reality staff have the final say in these matters, including how this is know as common sense and expressed from player to player contact.

Next time instead of running for the possibility of losing chump change over a fine, actually pull over and do a little RP. Citizens are law-abiding and that's the end of it. Next time, act like one or change your job to fit your roleplay.