[MikeH_]

Name: mke

Time/Date: 24/10/16 - 20:50

Steam ID:

Limelight - Link watcher

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STEAM_0:0:59490130

Name of Administrator: [L²][F.I]BlackDog

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(Radio) Frederic Mccullum: Help me
Failed to load sound "vehicles\lwcars\ferrari458\startup.wav", file probably missing from disk/repository
Failed to load sound "vehicles\lwcars\ferrari458\startup.wav", file probably missing from disk/repository
You received $320 salary. $80 paid to tax.
(Radio) Michael 'Ciryl' Lane: I see Frederic
(Radio) Poggy Big Belly Pollo: one of us just got taken down to the jails bny cops and sru
lets get him out
*** Poggy Big Belly Pollo radios in: one of us just got taken down to the jails bny cops
and sru lets get him out
(*>>) (OOC) [L²][F.I] The Rock: Oiiiiii
(Advert) Holland Novak (18): Car meet at AM PM! - Burn out, Rev fucking do hood rat
shit!
(OOC) Megamezzomixer: The ambulance is by far the worst car I have ever driven..
Poggy Big Belly Pollo: hey mike one of us is in the jails

The start of these series of events began when the police arrested George. As he was in a group of Anarchists they came to free him from the jails. This jailbreak only took a matter of seconds, and the group then decided they would seek vengeance by raiding the Vice-President. The group reached the top floor with no resistance, killed the SS, and took the VP hostage.

Soon afterwards, the police force and SWAT team came to the top floor and killed all Anarchists except for George, and as a result George was interrogated for about 15 minutes before being brought down the jails by the government. On the way, he was spotted by the Anarchists who, again, attempted another jailbreak. While the SWAT and Police Officers were occupied sorting out the prisoners, the Anarchists stormed the jails; members were killed on both sides. Just as the jailbreak was in full swing, BlackDog interrupted the raid and froze Kpred, Brennan, and MKE in the air, effectively ending the raid. BlackDog then began to lecture the experienced group of Anarchists and quoted several rules which do not exist. One of which was the fact that Anarchists have to change their job rules so that they can be affiliated with each other. This is direct contradiction to the group’s description in which it says ‘A member of an underground GROUP of criminals”. It is clear that these criminals are grouped together and DO NOT need to further clarify this.


During the whole situation where BlackDog was questioned as to what rule was broken, or what we were being punished for he failed to produce a concrete reason and kept reiterating that we had no affiliation to each other. We stated during the whole conversation that the gamemode and the rules clearly state that the anarchists are a team. BlackDog had a conflicting opinion to this stating that they are a group of individuals. Firstly, I will restate that the description of the job states ‘A member of an underground GROUP of criminals” we told BlackDog this but he continued to ignore it stating his own opinion. Secondly, the Anarchist group has a team radio, obviously showing the group are affiliated hence otherwise why would they all have communication with each other. Thirdly, the Anarchist/Mafia rules state “15.1 Do not kill or steal from your team members” this a rule which applies to the anarchists, stating quite clearly they are a team and thus affiliated. Also the rules also state Different teams are created for a reason, so do not ally with other teams. For example, Anarchists  do not ally with Corleones. This states that the Anarchist is a predefined team. Contradictory to BlackDogs opinion. In essence I am stating that the gamemode and rules define that the Anarchists are a team, in this situation BlackDog has acted against what the gamemode and rules state and decided to punish off his own opinion.


After this had been explained to BlackDog, he said that this is not valid and that the raid would be cancelled. He then slayed the remaining Anarchists and posted the link to the Staff Report section.

We feel as though BlackDog has failed in his duty as an Administrator because of the fact he has created his own interpretation of the rules and enforced them without any valid reasoning to do so. Nowhere in the rules does it state that we need to clarify as Anarchists that we are a part of a ‘team’. We also feel as though BlackDog has disturbed our roleplay as he decided to take it upon himself to interrupt the raid and then abuse his use of the !slay command, resulting in the raid essentially being ‘written off’ because he felt as though it was an invalid reason. We would also like to state that no other person had a problem with us not being affiliated BlackDog took it upon himself to stop our RP.

[BlackDog]

 Just as the jailbreak was in full swing, BlackDog interrupted the raid and froze Kpred, Brennan, and MKE in the air, effectively ending the raid. BlackDog then began to lecture the experienced group of Anarchists and quoted several rules which do not exist. One of which was the fact that Anarchists have to change their job rules so that they can be affiliated with each other. This is direct contradiction to the group’s description in which it says ‘A member of an underground GROUP of criminals”. It is clear that these criminals are grouped together and DO NOT need to further clarify this.

(This has been enforced as such for some time, you are an anarchist, a person who dislikes authority, a person who does PETTY crime, if you wish to work with another "Anarchist" you can do so, but list your affiliation as such, such as forming into a group, an example I often give out as a basic template "Jones Gang: Member" Affiliation is shown, the RP type is shown depending on what they wish, and your status within it is shown.

Without this your just "Anarchist" helping "Anarchist" because "Anarchist", you are not a gang, you are not a group, you are a single person who identifies as an Anarchist, a petty criminal who dislikes authority.

This kind of action is exactly the same as "Criminal" helping "Criminal" because "Criminal".
Job titles must be specific in what you are RPing as and not having it at the time of the action invalidates the action in question.

This falls under:
9.1: Custom job titles must accurately state what character you intend to roleplay. (See Below)
9.4: Do not set your job title as "Classified" or similar  (See Below)
9.6: You must roleplay your job accurately (See Below)

(An Anarchist slot is by default a petty criminal and with its leader slot removed, an individual with no default team connections other than the fact they wear similar clothing and have similar ideals to the others (9.6), thus to work together as a group, affiliation must be listed to show this, (9.1) and thus the title must also fall in line with 9.4 and not be vague to confirm your RP type))



During the whole situation where BlackDog was questioned as to what rule was broken, or what we were being punished for he failed to produce a concrete reason and kept reiterating that we had no affiliation to each other. We stated during the whole conversation that the gamemode and the rules clearly state that the anarchists are a team.

(Note: No punishment was handed out, the situation was invalidated due to a lack of listed affiliation, and as such those involved we're respawned without loss of property)

BlackDog had a conflicting opinion to this stating that they are a group of individuals. Firstly, I will restate that the description of the job states ‘A member of an underground GROUP of criminals” we told BlackDog this but he continued to ignore it stating his own opinion. Secondly, the Anarchist group has a team radio, obviously showing the group are affiliated hence otherwise why would they all have communication with each other.

(I was not aware that the radio was still there, its no doubt a leftover from when they we're changed from rebels, when rebels we're changed to anarchists, all things linking them together as a group we're supposed to be removed, Anarchist Leader was once a thing until them all being one group made no sense, so it was removed and thus they became job class of individuals acting independently from eachother by default)



Thirdly, the Anarchist/Mafia rules state “15.1 Do not kill or steal from your team members” this a rule which applies to the anarchists, stating quite clearly they are a team and thus affiliated. Also the rules also state Different teams are created for a reason, so do not ally with other teams. For example, Anarchists  do not ally with Corleones. This states that the Anarchist is a predefined team. Contradictory to BlackDogs opinion. In essence I am stating that the gamemode and rules define that the Anarchists are a team, in this situation BlackDog has acted against what the gamemode and rules state and decided to punish off his own opinion.

(Again, most likley an unintended leftover from the original changes when they WE'RE a unified team with a designated leader by default, this is no longer the case"

After this had been explained to BlackDog, he said that this is not valid and that the raid would be cancelled. He then slayed the remaining Anarchists and posted the link to the Staff Report section.
(The raid was invalidated and all anarchists we're respawned yes, when you began to bring it into the OOC chat i forwarded a link to this posting area and said to keep the discussion from flowing into the ooc

We feel as though BlackDog has failed in his duty as an Administrator because of the fact he has created his own interpretation of the rules and enforced them without any valid reasoning to do so. Nowhere in the rules does it state that we need to clarify as Anarchists that we are a part of a ‘team’. We also feel as though BlackDog has disturbed our roleplay as he decided to take it upon himself to interrupt the raid and then abuse his use of the !slay command, resulting in the raid essentially being ‘written off’ because he felt as though it was an invalid reason. We would also like to state that no other person had a problem with us not being affiliated BlackDog took it upon himself to stop our RP.
 
(A point of order, part of my job is to interpret the rules in how they apply to all situations beyond what is written, such is in our rules within the line (It's almost impossible to cover every single detail with rules).

Thus staff need to be able to define the undefined within the ruleset we have been provided and based on the interpretation, action is taken.

In a majority of cases an interpretation is unneeded, others become far more complex than anything that could ever be written down in a shorthand form, and thus staff look to which rules where such an action could fall under. In this case, 9.1, 9.4, 9.6, combined with the changes made to the Anarchist job in itself, the swap from Rebels, To a unified anarchist front, to the removal of its leadership and its change into a group of individuals, compiled by the enforcement of Listed Group Affiliation for groups working together.

No punishment was handed out during this situation and the situation itself was invalidated based on the above

[MikeH_]

Firstly, a punishment was quite clearly handed out as we were all slayed. Secondly, after the removal of the leader role a question was asked in the help and support section as to which this very situation was clearly answered that anarchists are a team See here. Thirdly, "Custom job titles must accurately state what character you intend to roleplay." The rule quite clearly states CUSTOM job titles, considering that  the anarchist job isn't custom this rule doesn't come into effect. Finally, stating that its just "its no doubt a leftover from when they we're changed from rebels", isn't a fair statement after the removal of the leader role all anarchists were given ECM Jammers showing that the class had been changed to reflect the removal of the leader. I fail to see how you can just pass this situation off saying that in your opinion all of this should have been removed where not only in the gamemode and rules, but also when official judgements have been passed on the forums you still go against this.

[BlackDog]

Firstly, a punishment was quite clearly handed out as we were all slayed.
(You we're not punished, since no one received an actual punishment, no BL, no Ban, a respawn to remove those people from the area)

Secondly, after the removal of the leader role a question was asked in the help and support section as to which this very situation was clearly answered that anarchists are a team See here.
(That does not appear to be an official ruling on the subject and one post in regards to the topic)

Thirdly, "Custom job titles must accurately state what character you intend to roleplay." The rule quite clearly states CUSTOM job titles, considering that  the anarchist job isn't custom this rule doesn't come into effect.
(I listed it as factor into my reasoning behind the action I took as the Listed Group Affiliation can fall into its catagory)

Finally, stating that its just "its no doubt a leftover from when they we're changed from rebels", isn't a fair statement after the removal of the leader role all anarchists were given ECM Jammers showing that the class had been changed to reflect the removal of the leader. I fail to see how you can just pass this situation off saying that in your opinion all of this should have been removed where not only in the gamemode and rules, but also when official judgements have been passed on the forums you still go against this.

(Thus far you have shown one thread, with 1 post saying they think thats how it might be near the end of it, this is not an official ruleing nor a post that every member of staff has seen, and thus they do not take it into accont,

I know i hadnt seen it up until now, I based my actions off what I had seen prior in threads within the Office, and what I have been told by other members of staff during discussions, ontop of the rules listed above and how they have been enforced.

If you feel the role of the anarchist needs a 100% fixed definition so that Listed Group Affiliation isnt needed and leftovers from the rebel job finaly removed, post a suggestion so that it can be discussed and ruled on)

[SirWulf]

Looking at this, overall I don't feel that this would fall under abuse. After all if you look at the thread for reporting abuse, using !slay is mentioned is a 'do not report' unless it was random. In this case it was not.

As for the judgement itself, I understand where you are coming from and it is confusing when things aren't clearly defined. BlackDog was trying to educate you, not punish. Hence the reset on the RP without any BLs or Bans. Since this is a known problem now, bring it forward in the Suggestion area instead of blaming the admin trying to help.

We are all in the same boat here. So lets move forward and look into what Anarchist is in another topic. We can accomplish much more there than playing the blame game here.

[MikeH_]

All us involved received punishment in the form of you slaying us? It clearly states that a !slay is a form of unorthodox punishment in the Report Instructions thread.

Banning you, even if you don't like the reason, make an unban request for this.
Administering unorthodox punishments, i.e. !slay.

Even if there isn't an official ruling stating this, it still clearly shows we are members of 'An underground group of criminals'. Rule 1.5 states 'Listen to admin decisions; they aren't negotiable.' Soviet's decision is final in this case as it directly states that Anarchists 'Stand for really a low level anti-government gang'. 

"I listed it as factor into my reasoning behind the action I took as the Listed Group Affiliation can fall into its catagory" this is you yourself admitting that you made a decision of a rule that isn't valid to the circumstances.

"If you feel the role of the anarchist needs a 100% fixed definition so that Listed Group Affiliation isnt needed and leftovers from the rebel job finaly removed, post a suggestion so that it can be discussed and ruled on)" There's no reason for the current Anarchist description to be changed since it was fitting to the roleplay that we carried out?

[MikeH_]

Looking at this, overall I don't feel that this would fall under abuse. After all if you look at the thread for reporting abuse, using !slay is mentioned is a 'do not report' unless it was random. In this case it was not.

Yes, and as explained above this was a random use of the !slay command. He had no reason to intervene abruptly ending the raid by freezing us all and then continuing to slay us with no reason which thus making it a random slay on multiple players.

[SirWulf]

Looking at this, overall I don't feel that this would fall under abuse. After all if you look at the thread for reporting abuse, using !slay is mentioned is a 'do not report' unless it was random. In this case it was not.

Yes, and as explained above this was a random use of the !slay command. He had no reason to intervene abruptly ending the raid by freezing us all and then continuing to slay us with no reason which thus making it a random slay on multiple players.

He did give a reason. You just didn't like it.  Random would be flying up and slaying everyone without any notice.

[MikeH_]

Looking at this, overall I don't feel that this would fall under abuse. After all if you look at the thread for reporting abuse, using !slay is mentioned is a 'do not report' unless it was random. In this case it was not.

Yes, and as explained above this was a random use of the !slay command. He had no reason to intervene abruptly ending the raid by freezing us all and then continuing to slay us with no reason which thus making it a random slay on multiple players.

He did give a reason. You just didn't like it.  Random would be flying up and slaying everyone without any notice.

Hardly.. his reason for slaying us was invalid which makes the slay random as there was no reasoning behind it, nothing to do with us not liking it.

[Temar]

Just because you didn't like his reason or agree with his interpretation of how anarchists should operate does not make it random
this shouldn't be an abuse case but a need for more clarification on how anarchists operate to prevent future issues

[Soviethooves]

There is really no abuse in my eyes here. He used !slay to respawn you 4 out of the scenario sort f like a "void" to the situation as he didn't wish for the raid to continue due to his stance on the matter.
The slaying was what I believe to be a restart for your group so there wouldn't be any immediate continuation of conflict if you were to leave then and there.

Also, side note. When you quote my professional opinion on matters, do use the whole quote.

"It is meant to say that every member is a leader, because Anarchism really means no one leads another. There is no established leadership. They stand for really just a low level anti-government gang. If we were to add the Rebels back, the only thing that would change would be a leader slot and the use of old models. In short they are a weak strung team of rag tag robbers, looters, etc." - https://limelightgaming.net/forums/threa...=anarchist

Now, in that statement, I say that the Anarchist job by default (In my eyes back in March) is meant for rag tag weak strung teams. I never said that Anarchists were full blown buddies. They can create factions and even just go solo if they wish, but they require a gang name for the appropriate job.

[Temar]

Ok so all that blackdog did was slay which only punishment would be to stop your rp
its a simple command, no lasting restrictions or logging against you
he did so based on how anarchists were changed and should operate
yes it can be confusing and alot of people arnt sure

so blackdog did not abuse his powers but we do accept that there is an issue with the team that caused this mess
there is public and private threads already in relation to fixing this and changes will happen in the coming days

Closed