[Doctor Internet]

Whilst racism was barely used in my experience, it did lead to some good RPs based around it. I understand part of why it was removed, namely the old syndrome of "12-y/os-who-think-they're-edgy-itis", but this does limit some good RP.

I think the concern is that good RP was never done. Multiple staff members said that they hadn't seen any of that RP, myself included.
When making the decision, none of those RP improvements had been seen, but all the negatives had been.

Out of interest, how many good RPs did you see, and how often?

[Preditor]

In my personal opinion I think this was a bad decision to change the rule, It's been a few years since I've been on the team but never in all my years of city RP have I ran into a problem where I couldn't tell if someone was OOC or IC with their behavior, voice or not. It's usually clear to tell and can easily be handled one way or another for both parties. 

This rule isn't really needed, common sense in a way can be more applicable here when it comes to ruling over situations as it always has been. Though I understand the struggle some people could have with it and it's fair to consider this option, it does more harm than good.

[Doctor Internet]

In my personal opinion I think this was a bad decision to change the rule, It's been a few years since I've been on the team but never in all my years of city RP have I ran into a problem where I couldn't tell if someone was OOC or IC with their behavior, voice or not. It's usually clear to tell and can easily be handled one way or another for both parties. 

The decision was made on more than just voice/text interactions. Descriptions which referenced OOC things, but in an IC way. License plates. Clan names/ranks. Job titles.

As I think was said before, it seemed that players (and to some extent staff) were having issues finding where that IC/OOC divide lay.

[Rydolph]

This server is fucking up badly.
I can't tell what's worse, the current Brexit situation or LL's.

LL is simply forcing people to behave the same way with no variety whatsoever.

Saying that it's for "business" is a poor excuse. The rule will drive players away, decreasing donations. It's a huge segment of character background development and contributes HUGELY to rp.

LL has not faced any outsourced problems caused by ingame discrimination in all of its time that it's been allowed. 

Allow people to rp as they'd like; the whole point of rp is to be someone you're not.

You can not say that ingame racism/discrimination/sexism is affecting business when we saw Doctor Internet and Oneshott promoting antisemitism - https://limelightgaming.net/forums/thread-24643.html .

As for your stakeholders, why would they invest or hold a stake etc without doing their research? They know that LL is an rp server, so they should know that rp involves racism/discrimination/sexism etc. That is a risk they took, so why worry?

Give the players what they want and you'll get plenty of business. Else, go ahead and fuck everything up.

[Preditor]

In my personal opinion I think this was a bad decision to change the rule, It's been a few years since I've been on the team but never in all my years of city RP have I ran into a problem where I couldn't tell if someone was OOC or IC with their behavior, voice or not. It's usually clear to tell and can easily be handled one way or another for both parties. 

The decision was made on more than just voice/text interactions. Descriptions which referenced OOC things, but in an IC way. License plates. Clan names/ranks. Job titles.

As I think was said before, it seemed that players (and to some extent staff) were having issues finding where that IC/OOC divide lay.

Well can you give me some examples of how it's used with clan names and ranks that could confuse people, or job titles too? Evidently I'd say the answer is in the same sentence, if it's obviously referenced in an OOC way despite it technically being "IC" isn't it OOC anyhow? At least assuming you know with purpose it is meant to be OOC and not just accusing because you may have an odd feeling.

In the case of a license plate, it's probably better to take it IC as it's what it's supposed to be, unless it comes to the extent of directly targeting someone OOCly such as "Preditor is a n*****" which I don't even believe the plates could extend that far and if someone ever did that I tip my hat to you.

Clans are generally IC organizations too. For the most part they are created and ran by players and they operate IC and run in the IC world. If I wanted to make a clan based on a street gang, or even groups like the KKK or the Black Panthers I'm not inherently driving it OOCly just by having the name in an IC situation. 

It's rather simple for a staff member to tell the difference in a clan/job title if it's "Bloods" or "N***** killers".

My point is, I understand that it's easy for people to be confused on the grey area of where the rules lie, however it doesn't take rocket science to understand where the drive is OOCly or ICly. What's important is how you interact and define what is allowed and what isn't, and by simply getting rid of the rule altogether it has seemed to upset the community more than help it. 

In a way adding this rule, despite existing before in other cityRPs is restricting the levels and freedom people can have to roleplay.

[Doctor Internet]

This server is fucking up badly.
I can't tell what's worse, the current Brexit situation or LL's.

I'm enjoy your hyperbole here. Please continue, because it really encourages me to respond to your points in a constructive manor.

LL is simply forcing people to behave the same way with no variety whatsoever.

Not being racist or sexist doesn't mean act the same way.
I don't suppose you've seen @PilotC's Highway Patrol RPs? The ones where he acts like a complete dick, but does it without being racist?

Saying that it's for "business" is a poor excuse. The rule will drive players away, decreasing donations. It's a huge segment of character background development and contributes HUGELY to rp.

Reducing membership is preferable to being sued or shut down.

LL has not faced any outsourced problems caused by ingame discrimination in all of its time that it's been allowed. 

Not yet. Increases in focus and changes to the Public Order act make it more likely, and as we've seen before, just being small doesn't make you invisible and immune to laws.

Allow people to rp as they'd like; the whole point of rp is to be someone you're not.

You still can be someone you're not. You just can't be racist and sexist while doing it.

You can not say that ingame racism/discrimination/sexism is affecting business when we saw Doctor Internet and Oneshott promoting antisemitism - https://limelightgaming.net/forums/thread-24643.html .

The signature was removed and the staff member was reprimanded internally.

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As for your shareholders, why would they invest or hold a stake etc without doing their research? They know that LL is an rp server, so they should know that rp involves racism/discrimination/sexism etc. That is a risk they took, so why worry?

Forgive me, where were shareholders mentioned?

Give the players what they want and you'll get plenty of business. Else, go ahead and fuck everything up.

Forgive me here for sounding callus. If the only reason players were here was to be racist, then that raises a larger concern. There's more to Limelight than racism.

[Pollux]

Why on earth is everyone really annoyed that they can't be racist anymore?

You guys do realise this used to be a thing and the world didn't burn down. I think it'll be fine, a lot of you seem to be overreacting and misunderstanding what this actually means. If anything, I'd argue RP quality in general was better while it was banned as there's generally zero RP behind the majority of "racist" roleplays and such. I get that some of you may have RPd it well, but you'd be lying to yourself if you said the majority did it fine.

[Doctor Internet]

Well can you give me some examples of how it's used with clan names and ranks that could confuse people, or job titles too? Evidently I'd say the answer is in the same sentence, if it's obviously referenced in an OOC way despite it technically being "IC" isn't it OOC anyhow? At least assuming you know with purpose it is meant to be OOC and not just accusing because you may have an odd feeling.

You can ask him for more specifics.

In the case of a license plate, it's probably better to take it IC as it's what it's supposed to be, unless it comes to the extent of directly targeting someone OOCly such as "Preditor is a n*****" which I don't even believe the plates could extend that far and if someone ever did that I tip my hat to you.

Agreed there, if it's just a license plate.

Clans are generally IC organizations too. For the most part they are created and ran by players and they operate IC and run in the IC world. If I wanted to make a clan based on a street gang, or even groups like the KKK or the Black Panthers I'm not inherently driving it OOCly just by having the name in an IC situation. 

It's rather simple for a staff member to tell the difference in a clan/job title if it's "Bloods" or "N***** killers".

Unfortunately not. As you said yourself, clans are generally IC. What changes a title from being IC to OOC? Is it having the slur? What about "Black killers", would that then become acceptable?

My point is, I understand that it's easy for people to be confused on the grey area of where the rules lie, however it doesn't take rocket science to understand where the drive is OOCly or ICly. What's important is how you interact and define what is allowed and what isn't, and by simply getting rid of the rule altogether it has seemed to upset the community more than help it.

In a way adding this rule, despite existing before in other cityRPs is restricting the levels and freedom people can have to roleplay.

I'm inclined to agree on the first part, but again, we had a couple of situations before (which led to the rule change), where it wasn't obvious, and wasn't black and white IC/OOC divide. You already posted an example of it yourself before, with clans.

[Rydolph]

This server is fucking up badly.
I can't tell what's worse, the current Brexit situation or LL's.

I'm enjoy your hyperbole here. Please continue, because it really encourages me to respond to your points in a constructive manor.

LL is simply forcing people to behave the same way with no variety whatsoever.

Not being racist or sexist doesn't mean act the same way.
I don't suppose you've seen @PilotC's Highway Patrol RPs? The ones where he acts like a complete dick, but does it without being racist?
Of which removes a lot of potential rp, you're missing the point. LL's rp is based on real-life; in real life there is racism etc.

Saying that it's for "business" is a poor excuse. The rule will drive players away, decreasing donations. It's a huge segment of character background development and contributes HUGELY to rp.

Reducing membership is preferable to being sued or shut down.
You can not be sued or shut down. Play your cards right rather than removing them altogether.

LL has not faced any outsourced problems caused by ingame discrimination in all of its time that it's been allowed. 

Not yet. Increases in focus and changes to the Public Order act make it more likely, and as we've seen before, just being small doesn't make you invisible and immune to laws.
3 years is enough to tell you that LL was and would survive well without the rule. Websites and communities exist which are discriminatory without facing prosecution; the difference is that LL only uses discrimination in its rp, and is not serious unlike those said websites and communities.

Allow people to rp as they'd like; the whole point of rp is to be someone you're not.

You still can be someone you're not. You just can't be racist and sexist while doing it.
Not if the person I want to rp as has racist or sexist tendencies? You're missing the point again, it adds a lot to rp development.

You can not say that ingame racism/discrimination/sexism is affecting business when we saw Doctor Internet and Oneshott promoting antisemitism - https://limelightgaming.net/forums/thread-24643.html .

The signature was removed and the staff member was reprimanded internally.

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You're still missing my point. You can not have a staff team who were promoting antisemitism out-of-character when you're trying to shoot down those were are being discriminatory in-character. It's hypocritical. "Reprimanded internally" just means you were laughing to each other considering you were the one involved.

As for your shareholders, why would they invest or hold a stake etc without doing their research? They know that LL is an rp server, so they should know that rp involves racism/discrimination/sexism etc. That is a risk they took, so why worry?

Forgive me, where were shareholders mentioned?
I meant stakeholders. You still seemed to focus on the misuse of a word rather than the actual context of what I was saying? This was quoted from Faustie's announcement regarding the rule change.
"From a business perspective (because of course, we're still a registered business with officers and shareholders)"

Give the players what they want and you'll get plenty of business. Else, go ahead and fuck everything up.

Forgive me here for sounding callus. If the only reason players were here was to be racist, then that raises a larger concern. There's more to Limelight than racism.
You've misinterpreted what I've said yet again. It's not the only reason that players are on LL, but it's a huge contributing factor to rp development.

[Doctor Internet]

LL is simply forcing people to behave the same way with no variety whatsoever.

Not being racist or sexist doesn't mean act the same way.
I don't suppose you've seen @PilotC's Highway Patrol RPs? The ones where he acts like a complete dick, but does it without being racist?

Of which removes a lot of potential rp, you're missing the point. LL's rp is based on real-life; in real life there is racism etc.

There is also people who randomly murder people. We don't allow RDM.
There are rapists. We don't allow rape RP.
ISIS exists. We don't allow extremist RP.

Saying that it's for "business" is a poor excuse. The rule will drive players away, decreasing donations. It's a huge segment of character background development and contributes HUGELY to rp.

Reducing membership is preferable to being sued or shut down.
You can not be sued or shut down. Play your cards right rather than removing them altogether.

Me personally? No. The company? Less so.
And also, when you say "play your cards right", you seem to be implying racism is a business tactic. Can you clarify?

[quote='Rydolph' pid='270713' dateline='1553166093']
LL has not faced any outsourced problems caused by ingame discrimination in all of its time that it's been allowed. 

Not yet. Increases in focus and changes to the Public Order act make it more likely, and as we've seen before, just being small doesn't make you invisible and immune to laws.

3 years is enough to tell you that LL was and would survive well without the rule. Websites and communities exist which are discriminatory without facing prosecution; the difference is that LL only uses discrimination in its rp, and is not serious unlike those said websites and communities.

You say it's not serious, but you haven't seen some of the stuff that's been removed.

Allow people to rp as they'd like; the whole point of rp is to be someone you're not.

You still can be someone you're not. You just can't be racist and sexist while doing it.

Not if the person I want to rp as has racist or sexist tendencies? You're missing the point again, it adds a lot to rp development.

What does it add?

You can not say that ingame racism/discrimination/sexism is affecting business when we saw Doctor Internet and Oneshott promoting antisemitism - https://limelightgaming.net/forums/thread-24643.html .

The signature was removed and the staff member was reprimanded internally.

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You're still missing my point. You can not have a staff team who were promoting antisemitism out-of-character when you're trying to shoot down those were are being discriminatory in-character. It's hypocritical. "Reprimanded internally" just means you were laughing to each other considering you were the one involved.

One of the reasons the rules were amended because of the grey area between IC and OOC, where "IC" actions would spill into the OOC.

As for your shareholders, why would they invest or hold a stake etc without doing their research? They know that LL is an rp server, so they should know that rp involves racism/discrimination/sexism etc. That is a risk they took, so why worry?

Forgive me, where were shareholders mentioned?

I meant stakeholders. You still seemed to focus on the misuse of a word rather than the actual context of what I was saying?

Stakeholders being the staff team, business, company officers. Many of whome were here before racism was allowed. You can't do research for future changes.

Give the players what they want and you'll get plenty of business. Else, go ahead and fuck everything up.

Forgive me here for sounding callus. If the only reason players were here was to be racist, then that raises a larger concern. There's more to Limelight than racism.

You've misinterpreted what I've said yet again. It's not the only reason that players are on LL, but it's a huge contributing factor to rp development.

Removing a small subset of RP development constitutes "fucking everything up", according to you.
Furthermore, being racist is not a huge factor, it's a minor one at worse, due to the other rules regarding RP reasoning.

[Lord Octagon]

An old character can be stuck in his ways and prefer a job be handled by a man or make casual racist remarks to people. That's part of a good, fleshed out character.

Except with this rule, even if it is a high quality RP, you can still get banned for it. The rule makes no distinction between a 'casual racist remark' made as part of a developed character and excessive, non-relevant racism/discrimination that 'blurs the lines'. I could be RPing as an RC bishop and refuse to ordain women, and be perm'd for '1.6, sexism is bad'.

There is no distinction between the two, and it is far too risky to 'leave it up to the admins'.

[Rydolph]

-Crop-

Rydolph: Of which removes a lot of potential rp, you're missing the point. LL's rp is based on real-life; in real life there is racism etc.

There is also people who randomly murder people. We don't allow RDM.
There are rapists. We don't allow rape RP.
ISIS exists. We don't allow extremist RP.
Each of your given examples don't contribute to casual rp, but do with "dark" rp. Discrimination is a part of casual rp.

-Crop-
Rydolph: You can not be sued or shut down. Play your cards right rather than removing them altogether.

Me personally? No. The company? Less so.
And also, when you say "play your cards right", you seem to be implying racism is a business tactic. Can you clarify?
I am not implying that it's a business tactic. I'm saying that you can still have a successful server (without being "sued") by not having the rule in place.

-Crop-

Rydolph: 3 years is enough to tell you that LL was and would survive well without the rule. Websites and communities exist which are discriminatory without facing prosecution; the difference is that LL only uses discrimination in its rp, and is not serious unlike those said websites and communities.

You say it's not serious, but you haven't seen some of the stuff that's been removed.
A very small minority does not represent the rest of the community. You've had to do your job and ban racists OOC? What's the problem? People know the difference between IC and OOC, and if they don't then they're the ones who need to go. Don't punish everyone else.

You still can be someone you're not. You just can't be racist and sexist while doing it.

Not if the person I want to rp as has racist or sexist tendencies? You're missing the point again, it adds a lot to rp development.

What does it add?
A lot.

-Crop-

You're still missing my point. You can not have a staff team who were promoting antisemitism out-of-character when you're trying to shoot down those were are being discriminatory in-character. It's hypocritical. "Reprimanded internally" just means you were laughing to each other considering you were the one involved.

One of the reasons the rules were amended because of the grey area between IC and OOC, where "IC" actions would spill into the OOC.
This still doesn't answer my original point. You can not condone racism and discrimination in-character by removing it altogether, when a portion of the staff team have been antisemitic out-of-character. It's contradictory.

Forgive me, where were shareholders mentioned?

I meant stakeholders. You still seemed to focus on the misuse of a word rather than the actual context of what I was saying?

Stakeholders being the staff team, business, company officers. Many of whome were here before racism was allowed. You can't do research for future changes.
If all of your stakeholders are internal then I don't see what the problem is?

-Crop-

You've misinterpreted what I've said yet again. It's not the only reason that players are on LL, but it's a huge contributing factor to rp development.

Removing a small subset of RP development constitutes "fucking everything up", according to you.
Furthermore, being racist is not a huge factor, it's a minor one at worse, due to the other rules regarding RP reasoning.
Adding the rule goes against the huge majority of the community's wishes. You might see it as a small subset to RP, but to many it is a great way to roleplay. This generation is too PC, and it's spread into the server.

[GokuVII]

You know guys that there was one time when I really really enjoyed every second of playing garry's mod with most of you! 

All these flimsy excuses and comments cannot get into my head.

SOLUTIONS:

1. In legal terms, you can always play around with law and if you are afraid of people getting insulted in a game then it can be dealt with in character by using /911 or /request. 
You know there is something called Terms and Conditions in a community and you can add the following: If you want to play on Limelight then you will have to accept all sorts of racism, sexism, the use of foul language, et cetera... (ONLY IN CHARACTER) or something along the lines

BY SIMPLY ADDING THIS INTO THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS, players should accept the terms and conditions before playing on servers. AND IF THEY DO NOT ACCEPT IT THEN SIMPLY DO NOT PLAY.

Now that saves you from all legal trouble and responsibilities, please correct me if I am mistaken.

2. The development of character has never been great with or without this rule, can you find out the underlying cause of this issue? I believe you still haven't found out yet!

Thank you for your time ladies and gentlemen

[Insert]

This rule change was a step back for the community. I am disappointed.

[Dan]

So context determines whether “nigga” is racist or not?
Just another gray area in the rules. Don’t have enough of those already.