[Jokhah]

Its popular to discuss the staff and how people believe they are biased, but no one ever talks about the community members and how biased they are.

Case in point, a lot of people love to bash on @BlackDog and his clan FUMUKU.  When the SAA set up shop here, many people came to us asking questions like "When yall gonna take down FUMUKU?"

Groups of members roll around steam rolling others with their collective efforts, be it using votes en masse to push things to go the way they want rather than thinking about what is actually best for the community.

Some members only come on here to provoke reactions out of other players or staff.



Its easy to play the victim, but not to take responsibility for one's own actions.

Why should the staff be unbiased when you have biased players hanging around?  Why do you expect more of the staff then you do your own circle?  Why is it okay for members to support biased behavior against others but when a staff makes a bad call he should be demoted for bias?

Pretty hypocritical in my opinion.



I recently presented a courthouse event as evidence as to why I support a suggestion.  The suggestion was about changing a rule.  I was greeted with a reply that both said that violating a rule is okay so long as it's roleplayed, but that the rule stands and players should be banned for it.  Left me shaking my head at the biased nature of the statement.

Thoughts?

[Da Cool Cow]

I think Player Bias is as evident as Staff Bias. Mostly it's just like players promoting their mates or letting their mates off crimes or whatever, so is it really any different to Staff being bias when welding props to cars and getting customized player-models? I guess you can argue that Players don't have a position of power nor authority in the Server so therefore their bias is less of an issue if it occurs, but that doesn't mean it's not there. Then again, you can say that players don't have access to said player models and ability to weld to cars, so perhaps it's unfair. I'm not too sure myself and I don't think it's much of an issue. Still goes without saying that there is bias from both Staff and Players.

[Jokhah]

@Da Cool Cow 

Lots of truth to what you say.  I feel it should be treated as much of an issue as "staff bias" is, because if people want to be critical of the staff, they need to be critical of themselves as well.

[Welker]

It may be true, there is biased members in the community. But you seem to forget that staff are supposed to be held to a higher standard, what difference does it make if there are bias community members? 

Members of the community hold little power to act on their bias nature, staff however do.  So I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to get at here.

[Noble]

@Jokhah

You do bring up some valid points and some of the frustrations I've had since returning.  Is there staff bias? Probably. Is it to the extent that I've seen it discussed on the forums? Not even close. I've seen this excuse used time and time again when someone doesn't get their way or are punished for their actions. They don't own up to what they're doing or act mature about the situation and default to "It's not me, it's you." I understand most of the playerbase is younger than me but it's not difficult to man up and take responsibility.

That being said there have been staff (talking nearly 2 years ago) who were clan members/leaders that attempted to use their staff positions to position themselves for clan gains (not Blackdog or Fumuku). I've seen it first hand from a development standpoint. This was the reason ECSE's inner workings were kept under lock and key. Anyone who had access wasn't in a clan. That being said these individuals have retired from staff yet I've seen them return to the forums to voice their 'outrage' regarding #fumukubias or players that believe they've been affected by it when they attempted to gain off systems using their positions. It's the most hypocritical thing I've ever witnessed.

Hell I even see veteran members mirroring the actions of some of our more immature players. These are the individuals that should know better than that and have even less of an excuse. I left the team a while back over some internal frustrations but not once did I write a resignation post that bashed staff or came back to the forums to leave shitty comments. It reflects poorly not only on yourself but the staff team that trusted you. I care enough about the community to spend a lot of hours each month (80hrs last month) to help Limelight grow and develop and its demoralizing to see that sort of behavior.

Bias is going to exist, if you're friends with someone you're more likely to trust them and do favors from time to time. This shouldn't be surprising to anyone. Maybe instead of trying to cause as much havoc here you try to build up the community and your relations with the people in it? Worst thing that happens is you make some new friends. 

Been sitting on this for a while, best to let that out.

[Jokhah]

@Welker 

All staff were/are players of the community.  Holding staff to a higher standard is fine to a degree in terms of how they conduct themselves, however seeing as staff are pulled from the same pool of players and knowing that players are in some cases extremely biased, its important to remember that staff aren't robots and that the players are the majority.  If the players are biased to the point of attacking at staff members, then being in the majority, they should be held to the same standards in this behavior.

I also completely disagree with the idea that the players have little power.  Players in the current situation can completely dominate some aspects of the direction of the server.  Stuff like suggestions, player reports, bug reports, even aspects of the help and support are near completely controlled by the voice of the common user.  If enough of the players decided to voice negative opinions of a staff member or even a potential one, they can 

@Noble 

I agree with you on all fronts.  We all need to attempt to work on our relations with our opposites.  I've even shifted Blackdog to my primary "go to" staff for questions a few months ago.  Primary reasoning is that he was the leader of SAA's most major rival, which created a bit of a void between us.  Though I had some reservations about this idea and some of my clan didn't exactly support the idea, it has been the best decision for me and the clan.  I don't always like the outcome of what situations I present to him, but I'm always left with a full understanding of why and he doesn't leave me with more questions.  Or, as a player example: I didn't like PDX initially, thinking he was a bit over the top with his aggressive style, but after taking the leap and interacting with him more I found that I respect and appreciate him more, even if we're not "friends" or even really "associates" of one another.  Vatipaa is another example, whom after a bad initial encounter I accused him of "sucking off staff."  Turns out that I was completely ignorant and after I realized (when it sank in, not when I was told initially) that was the case, our relationship significantly improved to passive banter about the situation in the form of friendly jabs and laughs.

[Noble]

@Noble 

I was with you till that last paragraph.  Could you clarify, "Maybe instead of trying to cause as much havoc here you try to build up the community and your relations with people in it?", as I can't tell if its directed or not.

I don't try to cause havoc, personally.  Sometimes I feel the need to speak out and sometimes it ends up pissing someone off, but I've never once said anything solely to cause havoc.  That being said, some things that I have said have started a bit of havoc in the process, but ultimately this is never my intention despite what the court of public opinion has to say on the topic.  Most people don't know me here.  Instead of trying to figure me out or even asking me about it, they instead make assumptions based on what they think they know and whatever little forum history or previous community history they can dig up and go with that.  I'm actually a very personal and supportive person when it comes down to it, from what I'm told when I actually care enough to ask.  Just a bit "set in stone" when it comes to rules, regulations, and policy.

Oh no none of that was directed towards you, it was to the players that haven't put the effort in to being decent community members

[Welker]

@Welker 

All staff were/are players of the community.  Holding staff to a higher standard is fine to a degree in terms of how they conduct themselves, however seeing as staff are pulled from the same pool of players and knowing that players are in some cases extremely biased

And since the staff team is meticulously hand picked, I would expect 'a degree' of conduct to be quite high. Members of staff did not just put their name in a hat and get pulled out. They are decision makers, and decisions being made cannot be bias.

If Bob was on trial, they would not allow his brother in law to be the judge would they?

Players are allowed to be bias, within reason and as long as rules are not being broken. This should not extend to staff members.

its important to remember that staff aren't robots and that the players are the majority.  If the players are biased to the point of attacking at staff members, then being in the majority, they should be held to the same standards in this 

I would hardly call attacking a member of staff 'bias'. It is against the rules and so it should be, but it is not 'bias'. The 'attacks' stem from players being generally sick of the bias behavior within the team, I do not support them however it is a growing trend that shows reform has to be made and attacking is not the solution and those who attack should be punished accordingly, however they are not bias. 


I also completely disagree with the idea that the players have little power.  Players in the current situation can completely dominate some aspects of the direction of the server.  Stuff like suggestions, player reports, bug reports, even aspects of the help and support are near completely controlled by the voice of the common user.  If enough of the players decided to voice negative opinions of a staff member or even a potential one, they can 

Except, how does one be bias in areas such as suggestions, bug reports and the generally the direction of the server as a whole? Help & Support is not opinion nor are bugs, how does one be bias in this regard? As for areas such as suggestions, simply because there is a differing opinion on the way individuals wish to see the direction of the server go, I do not see how that is bias. Player reports have and always will be bias so some degree, however the decision making should not be. Players do not decide the conclusion of PRs therefore, it is not on them. 

[Vauld]

Community bias doesn't matter cause who gives a shit, it's people who play the server.. The issue is when people of power have bias, and have abilities that players don't have.

I do see a point of how bias leaks between players and staff, and it's completely destructive. I mean I was a member of FUMUKU in like 2012, I nearly wasn't promoted to admin due to Grub's bias. He had a grudge for literally no other reason besides the fact I was in a rival clan. He revealed this after I got the position, and after we had been talking for a while. So yes, bias can leak from player to admins.

But I think that the above example is probably rare, and would be even more rare if admins once promoted weren't allowed to be in clans.


The real soul and heart of the issue is once an admin gains powers, the slate needs to be clean. An admin is a judge, and as a result shouldn't have any clan association as far as I'm concerned. Judges don't have political alignment, same with an admin. I've said this throughout my years in higher ranks. I was met by HR who usually said something along the lines of "We can't control what admins do in their time on the server" or "many of the admins are as active as they are due to clans" stuff like that. 

So here's my thoughts really, I don't think admins should be clan affiliated, period. But I understand the flip perspective, and I think a fair compromise would be allowing admins to be in PASSIVE only clans. This way there's no sides to the situation. 



ALSO

*trigger warning unfiltered opinions below*

Let me tell you how triggered I am by the shit admins do with their clans that regular players can't. So first and foremost, admins with clans SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY ADDITIONAL PRIVILEGES. Yes, we know you're an admin and that means you have privileges generally, but it's absolutely ridiculous for those privileges to cross over into clan activity. 

Labor camps, really? Are you joking? Blackdog will argue that it's all fair, well it's not. It's complete shit, and if you don't agree with it you just get banned. I remember one time I went on a hunger strike and starved myself, he claimed it was "power-gaming" like no, you know what is powergaming is teleporting me from the jail into this labor camp where I have no choice but to work for FUMUKU - I don't care who it's approved by, the president, HR, doesn't even matter. 

The game-mode is set to support a jail sentence in the designated jail, if you don't like that or want more options, make a change to the game-mode that is supported by players. You can't just "decide" that changing the entire premise of the game-mode is allowed for endless hours because you "roleplay" it. It wouldn't be as bad if anyone could do it, but it's an ADMIN ONLY, CLAN RELATED PRIVILEGE. You're affecting the entire server in an unfair way, forcing us to do things we don't want, with abilities only admins have, to support a clan we may or may not support. Bullshit.

This same concept applies for the various bullshit drone variations I've seen. 

And of course when you bring up these points, you speak with Blackdog which is like speaking to an actual wall. I shit you not, I would rather sit and talk to a wall than debate with Blackdog for more than 10 seconds (sorry BD love ya but jeeeeeez). So you go to another admin to discuss, oh well guess what, EVERYONE IS IN FUMUKU. No one sees an issue with a forced labor camp, game-mode altering and player annoying, because it benefits 75% of the admins.

Even if the bias isn't intentional, it's unconscious. It's hardwired to have in-group and out-group dynamics in psychology. 



Story time with space engineers, I remember when I blew up a FUMUKU ship with Nevy and a small group and it became a "Glitch" like no, there was no glitch, you got your shit blown up. Lel, that's all I have to say about that.



This is a reoccurring issue, and needs to be seriously discussed. Even if we allow admins to continue being in clans, they need proper training in dealing with bias, and non-biased people need to be constantly regulating behavior that's questionable.

Rocket was put in a super terrible situation, where Blackdog acted like a total a-hole (sorry but that's what I think, no understanding and an angry attitude from the start) and he was teamed up against. It's not arguable that bias was involved. FUMUKU people are buddies with each other and it plays a role in almost every situation. The end.




@FUMUKU people, this is nothing personal, a lot of you are cool individuals. I don't really play the server anymore so generally this doesn't affect me and I have nothing to gain/lose. However, this is what I've noticed though over my 2000+ hours on City RP, since being involved in 2011. I've seen all sides of this issue, and I hope my perspective is at least somewhat valuable.

Edit: This isn't meant to be a Blackdog bash, like I said I like BD as a dude. Despite that though, looking objectively FUMUKU is a relatively easy target (old and active clan) and I've had the most experience dealing with bias stemming from them. However as mentioned below, S/O to Rickets clan, I thought they were pretty horrible too.

[Jokhah]

@Welker 

You raise some good points, I mostly can agree with it.

@Vauld 

Some interesting content in your post that I don't fully understand and will have to go over a few times to get a grasp on.  Lots of it I just wasn't around for I suppose but I'm sure there is some history on the forums I can look at.

I don't agree that biased players doesn't matter to a minor extent.  While normal bias is fine, when there is a standoffish or otherwise "us vs them" between community and staff, that form of bias matters as it's pretty make or break and results in all sorts of chaos and actions/demotions/bitchfests.  I'm sure you know exactly the kinds of situations I'm talking about, from our history knowing one another we've seen many of them.

I'll give the rest of it a few looks over tomorrow after classes and see if I can't better understand what you are talking about.





To everyone so far, great feedback.  Good points on both sides of the fence.

[Hungames]

Its popular to discuss the staff and how people believe they are biased, but no one ever talks about the community members and how biased they are.
Community bias doesn't do shit, end of story. With admins being handpicked, the staff can figure out who is biased and who is not. 

Case in point, a lot of people love to bash on @BlackDog and his clan FUMUKU.  When the SAA set up shop here, many people came to us asking questions like "When yall gonna take down FUMUKU?"
People bash on Fumuku because Fumuku bashes on the people. The select Fumuku battle buddies, armed with the power of blackdog, are able to set up labor camps, drones, get player models, and build extremely laggy bases. Normal players cant do that. 

Groups of members roll around steam rolling others with their collective efforts, be it using votes en masse to push things to go the way they want rather than thinking about what is actually best for the community.
When voting in a suggestion, you don't think what is best for the community. That is the staff's job. You think about what will make your experience better. This isn't a perfect world where every player supports every other player. Act like an ass, be treated like an ass by others.

Some members only come on here to provoke reactions out of other players or staff.
Maybe they take enjoyment out of that. If no one is getting hurt, whats the issue?


Its easy to play the victim, but not to take responsibility for one's own actions.
This goes for staff, too. They can quite easily play the victim and pull up 1.5, rather than taking responsibility.

Why should the staff be unbiased when you have biased players hanging around?  Why do you expect more of the staff then you do your own circle?  Why is it okay for members to support biased behavior against others but when a staff makes a bad call he should be demoted for bias?
Because staff are in a power position. Players can try all they want but their opinion doesn't matter in the end. We expect more of the staff because they are a hand picked group of people that are making decisions for everyone. 
Pretty hypocritical in my opinion.



I recently presented a courthouse event as evidence as to why I support a suggestion.  The suggestion was about changing a rule.  I was greeted with a reply that both said that violating a rule is okay so long as it's roleplayed, but that the rule stands and players should be banned for it.  Left me shaking my head at the biased nature of the statement.
Was it a staff member or a player that said this? A player would be in no position to make a decision relating to the rules.
Thoughts?

I'd like to say that when the staff exhibit bias to you, you have no choice but to be biased back. For me, when most of my punishments come from the exact same person, and another staff member notices that, where is the bias? When another staff member says, and I quote "He's got a wierd hard on for you", where is the bias? When one group of people is consistently singled out, warned, banned, and blacklisted for everything imaginable, where is the bias?

[Soviethooves]

I honestly love these chats with bias problems as it’s a real issue. I’ve been on both sides. I’m friends with staff member, players, FUMUKU, vets, and have even started liking players that I previously never thought I would like.

But the name calling and the childish remarks are not needed. This is a place for discussion and to find out what the problem is and how the community can fix it, not to call BD out. If you wanna do that, please do it somewhere else as it turns from being constructive into just sounding like a rude individual. 

I agree with some or most of the thing you have to say @Vauld, but the way that was delivered was uncalled for.

[Vauld]

If you don't want to be criticized don't be a staff member, period. I delivered my opinion in a blunt but fair way, and made sure to mention that none of it was personal I think BD is a cool dude, it was simply my thoughts in regards to dealing with him in FUMUKU related situations. 

It's not my job to make sure everything I post goes through a filter, it's important to recognize the blunt truths. I recognized that Grub has also been biased, it's simply the truth I know.

I believe everything I said was very constructive, I offered multiple suggestions and pinpointed what I think to be multiple issues. If there was other admin-dominated clans outside of FUMUKU I'd pick on them too.

Ex: That one stupid clan Rickets had was super annoying, with their militarized skins - horrible, horrible, horrible, and so divisive. That being said, Rickets is my boi. I'm not trying to be particularly rude, I'm stating my objective thoughts.

[Soviethooves]

Its popular to discuss the staff and how people believe they are biased, but no one ever talks about the community members and how biased they are.

Case in point, a lot of people love to bash on @BlackDog and his clan FUMUKU.  When the SAA set up shop here, many people came to us asking questions like "When yall gonna take down FUMUKU?"

Groups of members roll around steam rolling others with their collective efforts, be it using votes en masse to push things to go the way they want rather than thinking about what is actually best for the community.

Some members only come on here to provoke reactions out of other players or staff.

This, this is what I hate. This community was made for us to have fun. There are some players that just come on to ruin it for others. I don’t understand why they do it, but it just causes people to get on each other and cause conflict that isn’t needed.



Its easy to play the victim, but not to take responsibility for one's own actions.

Why should the staff be unbiased when you have biased players hanging around?  Why do you expect more of the staff then you do your own circle?  Why is it okay for members to support biased behavior against others but when a staff makes a bad call he should be demoted for bias?

Pretty hypocritical in my opinion.

I’ve been bias to others as a player and as a staff member. Everyone has at one point. The problem comes when a group of players gain power and abuses it for the worse of others. For example, at one point I raided and attacked the president with a friend. I used my powers to gain an unfair advantage for the better of my group. Because of my abuse of powers, I was given a warning. What I want to see happen soon is that staff members aren’t allowed to join clans. It’s a radical idea as they’re here to have fun too, but clans just make bias staff members easier than just being a neutral party.



I recently presented a courthouse event as evidence as to why I support a suggestion.  The suggestion was about changing a rule.  I was greeted with a reply that both said that violating a rule is okay so long as it's roleplayed, but that the rule stands and players should be banned for it.  Left me shaking my head at the biased nature of the statement.

Thoughts?

[Barkles]

It is literally impossible to be "un-bias" even without realising we're being bias in tiny ways probably, like when as an admin I seem to get off with way more crimes, or get better deals on things. And as an admin there's a reason we don't ban our friends (because we get someone else to deal with a sit involving them) because even if I did do something I'd probably be less harsh on them.

End of the day the bias will always be there it's about realising when its happening and going "ok I need to stop this"

/Justwokenup