[Joey Skylynx]

Regarding the whole labor camp thing, I think it's fair to note that I started that stuff back in 2011 on the other community. I mostly started that because it was hilariously profitable when you were the mayor, and it was also an easy way to lock down dissidence in the Corleone and Rebel factions :v

[Jokhah]

@Hungames 

I dunno where to begin with you.  I'd ask you why you go out of your way to do some of the things you do, but I'm sure I'll be left with more questions.  Just because no one gets hurt, rolling around being an asshole trying to provoke a reaction isn't good for the community either.  Though I didn't name you, I had you specifically in mind when I wrote that sentence.  I don't know what happened to you, but I've seen better out of you, I know you can be better.  Who hurt you, Hungames.  What can I (we) do to help you have a more positive experience with the community?

@"Gungranny" 

I was kicking around the idea of staff vs clan last night after what Vauld said.  The idea that staff should be clanless seems overly restrictive and unfair to staff.  Only thing that made sense was if clanned staff aren't allowed to administrate when it pretains to their clan.

I don't like seeing when a staff shifts from player to staff to stop a situation that effects their experience immediately.  As with any situation, tensions are typically higher than usual and seeing the guy on the other team come down as the ruling party as well comes off in a way that isn't good.  I say it that way because the words for the specific feeling escape me.

[Doctor Internet]

Case in point, a lot of people love to bash on "BlackDog" and his clan FUMUKU.  When the SAA set up shop here, many people came to us asking questions like "When yall gonna take down FUMUKU?"
People bash on Fumuku because Fumuku bashes on the people. The select Fumuku battle buddies, armed with the power of blackdog, are able to set up labor camps, drones, get player models, and build extremely laggy bases. Normal players cant do that.

Battle Buddies armed with the powers of Blackdog - I have no idea what you mean here, tbh. You mean armed with guns right?
Labour Camps - Anyone can set up, they just need to get the President to approve it. I've seen it multiple times on 33x with non-FI people.
Drones - ?
Get Player Models - Anyone can get player models, so long as it fits the RP they're doing, even clans. See OPUS getting the old SRU models.
Laggy Bases - They're literally designed to not be laggy. The last time you complained about the laggy base it was VCMod breaking. And the time before when Blackdog didn't even have anything spawned down?

Groups of members roll around steam rolling others with their collective efforts, be it using votes en masse to push things to go the way they want rather than thinking about what is actually best for the community.
When voting in a suggestion, you don't think what is best for the community. That is the staff's job. You think about what will make your experience better. This isn't a perfect world where every player supports every other player. Act like an ass, be treated like an ass by others.

You're a member of the community. You should vote for what would be best for the community, not just for you.

Some members only come on here to provoke reactions out of other players or staff.
Maybe they take enjoyment out of that. If no one is getting hurt, whats the issue?

People bash on Fumuku because Fumuku bashes on the people.

If that's what you believe, then I'm sure why provoking reactions would make our community a more toxic place to be. Reaction provokes reaction. And I'm sure nobody here wants a toxic community.

Its easy to play the victim, but not to take responsibility for one's own actions.
This goes for staff, too. They can quite easily play the victim and pull up 1.5, rather than taking responsibility.

No. The use of 1.5 is monitored, to ensure that sort of thing doesn't actually happen.

Why should the staff be unbiased when you have biased players hanging around?  Why do you expect more of the staff then you do your own circle?  Why is it okay for members to support biased behavior against others but when a staff makes a bad call he should be demoted for bias?
Because staff are in a power position. Players can try all they want but their opinion doesn't matter in the end. We expect more of the staff because they are a hand picked group of people that are making decisions for everyone. 
Pretty hypocritical in my opinion.

Staff are in a position where every action they take will be torn apart by certain members of the community, for right or wrong. If the community are being biased, it does increase pressures on the staff team.

I recently presented a courthouse event as evidence as to why I support a suggestion.  The suggestion was about changing a rule.  I was greeted with a reply that both said that violating a rule is okay so long as it's roleplayed, but that the rule stands and players should be banned for it.  Left me shaking my head at the biased nature of the statement.

I believe the way @"Gungranny" intended it to be was that it's not okay to breach the rules, but that individual instance shouldn't be punished, as the situation had already been resolved.

Was it a staff member or a player that said this? A player would be in no position to make a decision relating to the rules.

It wasn't a decision, it was a response to a suggestion thread.

I'd like to say that when the staff exhibit bias to you, you have no choice but to be biased back. For me, when most of my punishments come from the exact same person, and another staff member notices that, where is the bias? When another staff member says, and I quote "He's got a wierd hard on for you", where is the bias? When one group of people is consistently singled out, warned, banned, and blacklisted for everything imaginable, where is the bias?

I took the liberty of looking over your punishments.
7 punishments from 6 different staff members.
Who are you talking about?

[SourLemon]

Some people just don't get along, just have to avoid them so bias doest take place to begin with.

[Jono]

I don't think the issue with bias is whether it exists or not - it inherently will. FUMUKU example: They're all friends, and naturally have a better relationship with each other. They'll discuss rules, players, suggestions and likely agree because they play together, and likely want the same mutual benefits.

The reoccurring problem is the lack of recognition of a potential bias with those in power where a bias may be a detriment. 

Objectivity is not a hard feat, all it takes is a step back and understanding both sides of the argument. I've always tried to be objective in scenarios that aren't personal, and yes it is difficult sometimes (especially if it's something one is passionate about), but especially those in staff positions, you all have enough practice of being objective.

[Jono]

A further point regarding banning admins from clans-

It's a difficult one.

On one hand, it can create unique experiences (mostly favouring the clan members) but nonetheless i've seen Fumuku (best example..again) do some really cool shit which has made my time on the server much more enjoyable.

On the other side, it's a situation where (again, especially in Fumuku's case) there's a lot of sentimental value in the clan itself, and there is obviously going to be bias when making decisions. 

So in that regard, it really comes down to benefits vs negatives, and that's a personal problem. Do the benefits of having admins in clans (often cool builds, rp events, other cool shit happening) vs negatives (bias, not always fun on 'other side' of RP, power gaming on occasion).

I don't think it's that clear cut, and is something that needs to be heavily discussed prior to any decision.

[akne]

Admins don't need to be banned from joining/running clans, they need to be banned from sniping threads on forums as soon as a member from their clan has a player report posted or posted against them. Cuts down on 50% of the bias straight away; you are not given a platform to defend yourself if the judge is the "victim's" friend.

[Noble]

Admins don't need to be banned from joining/running clans, they need to be banned from sniping threads on forums as soon as a member from their clan has a player report posted or posted against them. Cuts down on 50% of the bias straight away; you are not given a platform to defend yourself if the judge is the "victim's" friend.

Any situations you can show this occurring on? 

I've seen staff go above and beyond to keep themselves out of situations regarding their friends to avoid this very issue and HR will step in if they witness such behavior happening or another staff member reports it.

[Daley]

It is literally impossible to be "un-bias" even without realising we're being bias in tiny ways probably, like when as an admin I seem to get off with way more crimes, or get better deals on things. And as an admin there's a reason we don't ban our friends (because we get someone else to deal with a sit involving them) because even if I did do something I'd probably be less harsh on them.

End of the day the bias will always be there it's about realising when its happening and going "ok I need to stop this"

/Justwokenup

Everyone is Bias, it's not difficult to say you are though when you need to, or simply let somebody else take care of it, or refrain from being involved. 

Just like you said, when a friend of  yours did something, you get somebody else to deal with it, but unfortunately not everyone does that.

As I have said many times before, everyone is bias, but you can take actions against it, making sure it does not compromise your duties as a staff member.

[monk]

I feel that the best method for overcoming bias is to look at one another not as the rank or clan but as the person.

Except for cops. I hate those goofy rule-breaking fucks.

[Jokhah]

@Doctor Internet 

I think that drone reference at the open of your reply, in regards to your confusion to what @Hungames was refering to, is probably that flying (rescue?) craft that Blackdog has.  Just a guess, not completely sure myself.  Its a thrust operated flying craft that functions generally correctly from what I've seen but has been the topic of some debate in the past.

As for the suggestion thing, I figured there was some level of disconnect in my understanding of what he was getting at.  I ended up just laying things out and agreeing to disagree.  I was just boggled at the idea of agreeing and allowing an exception to policy in the same statement.  This largely is due to my career choices and how "concrete" all the rules, regulations, and policies were.  Personally, I feel we both have valid points on that specific thread that are equally logical.

[Jokhah]

@Vauld 

I've tried to read what you wrote, but the warning triggered section would simply take too long to research and respond in a timely fashion.  A lot of that seems to be in specific cases or connected over time and I wouldn't want to speculate without reviewing whatever I could prior.

I did seriously think about admins and clans, and I disagree.  In a different reply here I stated my thoughts on it and will sum it up here for ya.

I feel that admins should have full rights to be in and own a clan, but I also feel that they should not be allowed to administrate when their clan or said members were involved.  Honestly I feel that if there is a "universal" clan management head position, that holder should either be clanless, or it should have either: an alternate to fill in when the holder's clan is in question, or a 3 person position running on majority vote.  In either case, they should not be clan affiliated to one another.

I also agree with training staff, however that is another monster topic that would take loads of feedback to iron out.

Awesome feedback, if not a little edgy in spots, but still very appreciated.

[Jokhah]

@SourLemon 

That is one way to handle the situation and it typically also works.  I prefer to actively try and play on the same team with someone who really gets me salty, to help better understand them and not be as salty the next time around.

@Jono 

I agree with you on your first post.  Being objective isn't really all that hard, just have to keep emotions out of the equasion.

Your second post, I've gone over in a few replies now.  I think the logical math on admins and clans is simple.  Admins can be in clans, but shouldn't perform admin actions when said clan or clan members are in question.  It should be deferred to a "third party" staff. (third party = not in same clan or possibly even allied clan if possible.)

[Jokhah]

@"Porg" 

I agree and when I was staff elsewhere I tried to keep the same policy on not involving myself in cases involving my associates.  Not always possible, but where I could, I did.

@akne 

Are you sure its staff doing the snipping?  I personally have started PRs, let them go for a while, then taken them down after deciding I didn't want to continue to push the issue.

@monk 

I agree 100%.  Even about those rule breaking, no good doing, cops.

[Quest]

It is literally impossible to be "un-bias" even without realising we're being bias in tiny ways probably, like when as an admin I seem to get off with way more crimes, or get better deals on things. And as an admin there's a reason we don't ban our friends (because we get someone else to deal with a sit involving them) because even if I did do something I'd probably be less harsh on them.

End of the day the bias will always be there it's about realising when its happening and going "ok I need to stop this"

/Justwokenup

Yeah teachers seem to get off with more crimes too. 

For example, the situation I'm about to talk about is more of a community bias situation, but could also be seen as staff bias if this "RP" was approved by a staff member.

So, ForceGhost has some sort of Roleplay that consisted of an RV, some toolbox/mechanical props and in the location of right in front of the pd gate did he have to do his Roleplay there? Nope. Why did he do it? I don't know. But as I tried to get around the small gap that I assumed he left for police cars to get through the hit box of my car was too large and I accidentally moved it slightly. By doing so, ForceGhost got a certain SWAT member at the time to pull a Rifle on me and told me to get out of my car, he then arrested me and that was that. 

I see certain RP's done typically by teachers that seem to be set up to antagonise people; which is my opinion of course. But that's not to say that most RP's done by teachers are fantastic. 

For example a certain tow truck RP set up by a teacher that literally just tows any car they see, even police vehicles with their ELS on and when you try and get it back they're either there or it takes quite a long time. This can aggravate or antagonise people into breaking the rules. And even when they do it illegal and the government raid them to get their vehicles back, BlackDog would come and pick them up and speak to them ( at least that what I saw from Doormats video ). 

As for staff bias, I see a few staff members using their perks just to sell cars. Not to do a real RP of sort, no dupe - just selling cars. I see a staff member spawn down 9 or 10 cars ( even more sometimes ) above the limit of 1 just to sell them. I see this as an unfair advantage because if a normal player wanted to do that, they'd had to use props and when a player wants to test drive a certain car it becomes and issue for the player. Why are the staff allowed to use their perks just to sell cars? And it does certainly give them an advantage, I see them doing so many more sales than if a car dealership was made by a player just using props and with only 1 car.