[monk]

Yeah man. Reminds me of the time a certain admin flew into our compound in the middle of a firefight so he could pause it all, yell at us, and time how long it took for a door to open before yelling some more and disappearing.

[yutgjctguc]

It COULD be resolved through IC means, but will it? Extremely unlikely. The only person who would bother complaining in most scenarios is the person who got killed, and they cannot complain ICly due to NLR.

If by some unlikely chance someone saw the event unfold and bothered reporting it to the sergeant or president, the most likely outcome is that they won't be bothered enough to investigate the report, the person will receive a warning, or the report be dismissed due to lack of evidence.

So, most of the time the person will go completely unpunished. And in the best (worst) case scenario they get demoted, which isnt so bad either.

If we left this to be dealt with IC means, too many cops will shoot to kill and use excessive force not for any RP reasons but just because it's easier to do so and there are no consequences for it.

True, no-one ever resolves things IC'ly. They just make an ooc argument "I GOT RANDOM ARRESTED, and then they start spamming request "President to jails president to jails" and the president never comes. So thaaats why no-one resolves stuff. 
And this one too: "If we left this to be dealt with IC means, too many cops will shoot to kill and use excessive force not for any RP reasons but just because it's easier to do so and there are no consequences for it."

[Wesley Lawrence]

It COULD be resolved through IC means, but will it? Extremely unlikely. The only person who would bother complaining in most scenarios is the person who got killed, and they cannot complain ICly due to NLR.

If by some unlikely chance someone saw the event unfold and bothered reporting it to the sergeant or president, the most likely outcome is that they won't be bothered enough to investigate the report, the person will receive a warning, or the report be dismissed due to lack of evidence.

So, most of the time the person will go completely unpunished. And in the best (worst) case scenario they get demoted, which isnt so bad either.

If we left this to be dealt with IC means, too many cops will shoot to kill and use excessive force not for any RP reasons but just because it's easier to do so and there are no consequences for it.

"If we left this to be dealt with IC means, too many cops will shoot to kill and use excessive force not for any RP reasons but just because it's easier to do so and there are no consequences for it."

There's still a difference between someone supposedly 'excessively using lethal force' and people just killing for the heck of it because it's ''easier to do so and there are no consequences for it''. Of course at that point staff has to intervene because it comes to the point of RDM or FailRP as a LEO or from their supervisor not dealing with it.

[Soviethooves]

At the end of the day, it's up to the staff member. Sometimes they let it slide and let it be dealt IC, others deal with it in OOC. It honestly just depends on the staff member.

I for one would pull a player aside OOC for excessive use of force if they're experienced and should be well aware of what they just did.

[ForceGhost]

At the end of the day, it's up to the staff member. Sometimes they let it slide and let it be dealt IC, others deal with it in OOC. It honestly just depends on the staff member.

Isn't this a fundamental issue? Surely all staff members should be dealing with the same scenario the same way, otherwise we, as players, know exactly where we stand in terms of some particular rules and grey areas.

[Nudel]

At the end of the day, it's up to the staff member. Sometimes they let it slide and let it be dealt IC, others deal with it in OOC. It honestly just depends on the staff member.

Isn't this a fundamental issue? Surely all staff members should be dealing with the same scenario the same way, otherwise we, as players, know exactly where we stand in terms of some particular rules and grey areas.

That is a huge issue here. Admin 1 would ban you, admin 2 would do nothing as he say's it is fine.

[Bambo]

Since the beginning of Limelight Excessive Usage of Lethal was enforced and this discussion wasn't brought up at all. Some of the people in this thread have in the past reported it also. There are times when new players do it, and if they have no record it's left with a warning and continued via roleplay but when there is an experienced player doing it, there is more to it. When we look into an experienced player  we do in fact take into consideration what caused it and what occurred but if it could've been avoided but the player chose not to or didn't think about it, we mostly issue a punishment that would act as a deterrent and have them act much more careful in the future.

There are no In-Character deterrent factors active in-game right now except a demotion which doesn't act much as a deterrent. In real life Police officers file reports if they shoot their guns, if they used excessive force they are suspended or given desk jobs or traffic duty and so on. There are so few that would actually roleplay it out and believe me I've left it to roleplays in the past but it ended with a "don't do it again" - "ok". If that's how a police officer using excessive force is going to be dealt with, then sadly I would not prefer it given at this time.

[Soviethooves]

At the end of the day, it's up to the staff member. Sometimes they let it slide and let it be dealt IC, others deal with it in OOC. It honestly just depends on the staff member.

Isn't this a fundamental issue? Surely all staff members should be dealing with the same scenario the same way, otherwise we, as players, know exactly where we stand in terms of some particular rules and grey areas.

Problem is, as much as people may say, this is a community not a business. We will never have set protocols. If we tried to do that, we would never be finished with it as their are too many factors to consider. Was it malicious? What is their history? Was the action justified? But why was it justified? What if he's lieing? The list goes on. Most staff members are on the same side for major grey areas, but small ones such as wesleys's situation are impossible to cover as they change every time.

[ForceGhost]

At the end of the day, it's up to the staff member. Sometimes they let it slide and let it be dealt IC, others deal with it in OOC. It honestly just depends on the staff member.

Isn't this a fundamental issue? Surely all staff members should be dealing with the same scenario the same way, otherwise we, as players, know exactly where we stand in terms of some particular rules and grey areas.

If we tried to do that, we would never be finished with it as their are too many factors to consider. Was it malicious? What is their history? Was the action justified? But why was it justified? What if he's lieing? The list goes on. Most staff members are on the same side for major grey areas, but small ones such as wesleys's situation are impossible to cover as they change every time.

Wouldn't it then be better for it to be dealt with in character? Therefore creating RP for the Government and freeing up staff members time reviewing logs when they weren't present at the time of the situation, missing the context of the situation entirely.

Or following on from @Bambo's post and give team leaders more options for management of their teams (Which has been suggested previously and once again buried). Make the PD have a permanent record of all demotions, promotions, equipment taken. Make the leaders of various teams able to enforce action by limiting the abilities of their members.

IE. Report of excessive force comes in the Chief has more options available such as:

• - Arrest (Arrested for x amount of time)
  
• - Demotion (Removed from job and unable to join until the current Chief resigns)
  
• - Desk Duty (No weapons or use of Police Vehicles)
  
• - Foot Patrol (No use of Police Vehicles)
  
• - Less than lethal option only (Strips all less than lethal weapons from the officer)
  
• - Suspension (Moved to citizen for x amount of time, when the time is up they'll be moved back to cop if there's space available, if not they'll be added to a queue.
  
• - Warning (Permanent warning on their record similar to the Police DB)
  

[Nev]

Permanent records cannot be added until we have permanent characters

[ForceGhost]

Permanent records cannot be added until we have permanent characters

Yet we have the Police Database. If Criminals can be interacted with based in their previous RPs wouldn't it be fair to allow officers to as well?

[Nev]

Flawed system as it cannot really be used against someone in a new life playing as a new character (ie. Changing their name)

[Toxic]

If only it wasn't completely broken.

[ForceGhost]

Flawed system as it cannot really be used against someone in a new life playing as a new character (ie. Changing their name)

Yet it still is, so yet another grey area that seems to be totally unaddressed.

[Soviethooves]

And we had perm. characters.

Sure ForceGhost, that's an option, but at the moment IC consequences aren't really that effective. Without perm. characters we really limit what we can do IC. So, no. IC consequences atm aren't severe enough to allow me to let the sgt. deal with excessive force.

I suggested a whitelisted PD that would allow for people to hold positions so they may get kicked out of them permanently or temporarily, but the majority didn't like that idea.