[Zeyon]

So. The dreaded shotgun. I think we need to re-open this topic again as I think (and others) that it still has some balancing issues. 

Today I was basing with @Lizard and @XGallagher98X and we were raided by the police force, the SWAT team, a civilian military, and 4 FUMUKU officers, including @BlackDog and @Toxic. (Dont remember who else was present)

I (almost) singlehandedly managed with a combination of medkit spamming and shotgun rushing to take down 3+ police officers, the entire SWAT team, one or two civilian militaries, and 3/4 FUMUKU officers before I was stopped with BlackDog shooting me point blank with a shotgun round in my head.

Personally I think the spread should be increased even more so it's completly useless over the 3-5 meter range, and increase the reload time dramtically so you have to be more careful with ammo management.
I also suppose it's worth mentioning medkit spamming might need a tweak aswell.

Just my two cents regarding the matter.

[Project]

Spread is rather "realistic" as it is right now. Police and SWAT should work on their tactics.

[Soviethooves]

Tactics need work and you know......no more medkit spam...

[BlackDog]

I do feel its an issue with the power of the weapon, with a mix of the medkit spam, we have a suggestion about changing the medkits to the FAS:2 one, which honestly I think would fix this issue.

The shotgun was not as much of an issue prior when you used a medkit, and had to wait 10-15 seconds to heal that 50%, now its a heal over time which overall is a FAR more useful option than the heal at a time, this has lead to this situation today where as you said, a large force was attacking, but none we're useing shotguns, so they would get a few hits in on you, but due to the heal over time, this damage would quickly be reversed, and since a medkit can be spammed like this, players have an almost constant heal factor, before you healed all 50% at once, and this could be balanced more, but at least when your health fell, you knew it was an issue.

In a situation before this at the house across from yours, the police we're handleing a barricaded attacker situation, police we're moving in, and FUMUKU acting as logistics and overwatch support, not one person in this situation had a shotgun, and while on the hills with a sniper I would be hit with a few shots, this would do little damage over all 5-10dmg per hit,but this damage I was actualy laughing off to myself, since as quickly as I would take the damage, i was healing it off due to medkits.


To me, we need to impliment the FAS:2 medkits ASAP, they take time to use, you cannot have a weapon out while useing them, and 1 kit only has 2 major healing items ata max, I think it has 2 25hp items,4 10Hp items,and a few smaller items.

So people could not spam this medkit, and a delay could be added to restocking your kit from your inventory, making it even harder to spam the kit in combat, and bring about the role of dedicated combat medits, as the kit can be used on other players.

[Zeyon]

I do feel its an issue with the power of the weapon, with a mix of the medkit spam, we have a suggestion about changing the medkits to the FAS:2 one, which honestly I think would fix this issue.

The shotgun was not as much of an issue prior when you used a medkit, and had to wait 10-15 seconds to heal that 50%, now its a heal over time which overall is a FAR more useful option than the heal at a time, this has lead to this situation today where as you said, a large force was attacking, but none we're useing shotguns, so they would get a few hits in on you, but due to the heal over time, this damage would quickly be reversed, and since a medkit can be spammed like this, players have an almost constant heal factor, before you healed all 50% at once, and this could be balanced more, but at least when your health fell, you knew it was an issue.

In a situation before this at the house across from yours, the police we're handleing a barricaded attacker situation, police we're moving in, and FUMUKU acting as logistics and overwatch support, not one person in this situation had a shotgun, and while on the hills with a sniper I would be hit with a few shots, this would do little damage over all 5-10dmg per hit,but this damage I was actualy laughing off to myself, since as quickly as I would take the damage, i was healing it off due to medkits.


To me, we need to impliment the FAS:2 medkits ASAP, they take time to use, you cannot have a weapon out while useing them, and 1 kit only has 2 major healing items ata max, I think it has 2 25hp items,4 10Hp items,and a few smaller items.

So people could not spam this medkit, and a delay could be added to restocking your kit from your inventory, making it even harder to spam the kit in combat, and bring about the role of dedicated combat medits, as the kit can be used on other players.

That medkit change makes sense but do you feel like the shotgun is in a good place balance wise?

[jarz]

Make it longer to reload, you can't reload a shotgun in a combat situation in under 10 seconds and that's being generous. Shotguns are lethal to ranges much longer than people would expect, so keep it how it is, and extend the amount of time it takes to reload. And only allow 5 shots because without an extension that's all an average shotgun is gonna fit.

[jarz]

snip

That medkit change makes sense but do you feel like the shotgun is in a good place balance wise?

He thinks it is in a good place because he is able to abuse the power it wields.

[PaulB]

I don't think it's shotguns in general it's all weapons.  it's all about tactics and how people use them. I just took down the entire government force with a p90.
How?
They had no tactics what so ever it's just as simply as reload, aim shoot and repeat with med-kit binds in between.
They came one by one, shotguns staying back at the cars while pistols pushing forward.
If they used actual tactics I most likely would of been dead.

[jarz]

I don't think it's shotguns in general it's all weapons., I just took down the entire government force with a p90.
How?
They had no tactics what so ever it's just as simply as reload, aim shoot and repeat with med-kit binds in between.
They came one by one, shotguns staying back at the cars while pistols pushing forward.
If they used actual tactics I most likely would of been dead.

So how is it a problem with guns if you proved it is tactics that got them killed?

[BlackDog]

I feel the damage, spread and range could be balanced a bit more, but at the same time i think the crux of the entire situation is the medkit allowing the kind of tactics that make it so effective to be possible, the shotgun tactic is charge in, healing, shoot up a bunch of people at point blank,  fall back while also continueing to heal at least 50% of the damage done in that time, shoot anyone who follows you at point blank, repeat process until everyone is dead.

Unless they also have a shotgun, the sheer damage output it has puts everyone else at a disadvantage, but that damage is only advantagous if you can get close, and you can only get close if you can heal the damage they put into you fast enough

Its like an MMO DPS-Tank situation, can i tank the damage being done to me long enough to heal while also killing my target.

As for proper tactics and planning.

Plans don't survive first contact, this is compounded by an angry fast healing person now in your face sometimes screaming shooting a shotgun that you know will kill you in almost one shot

[PaulB]

I don't think it's shotguns in general it's all weapons., I just took down the entire government force with a p90.
How?
They had no tactics what so ever it's just as simply as reload, aim shoot and repeat with med-kit binds in between.
They came one by one, shotguns staying back at the cars while pistols pushing forward.
If they used actual tactics I most likely would of been dead.

So how is it a problem with guns if you proved it is tactics that got them killed?

Mis-phrased there.
Meant to say "it's all about tactics".

I feel the damage, spread and range could be balanced a bit more, but at the same time i think the crux of the entire situation is the medkit allowing the kind of tactics that make it so effective to be possible, the shotgun tactic is charge in, healing, shoot up a bunch of people at point blank,  fall back while also continueing to heal at least 50% of the damage done in that time, shoot anyone who follows you at point blank, repeat process until everyone is dead.

Unless they also have a shotgun, the sheer damage output it has puts everyone else at a disadvantage, but that damage is only advantagous if you can get close, and you can only get close if you can heal the damage they put into you fast enough

Its like an MMO DPS-Tank situation, can i tank the damage being done to me long enough to heal while also killing my target.

As for proper tactics and planning.

Plans don't survive first contact, this is compounded by an angry person now in your face sometimes screaming shooting a shotgun that you know will kill you in almost one shot

If someone has a shotgun in your face your pretty much fucked either way but if you know the shotgun is coming at you, you can simply focus on the person first and not rush the guy and just use cover for the shotgun to rush you.

[Overlewd]

The problem is not the shotgun, it's the health kits. These "FAS:2" kits proposed by @BlackDog sounds like a great idea, I think it will help remedy the problem quite a lot.

[BlackDog]

If someone has a shotgun in your face your pretty much fucked either way but if you know the shotgun is coming at you, you can simply focus on the person first and not rush the guy and just use cover for the shotgun to rush you.

This is something that does not happen, as Zeyon stated, he wiped out an entire swat team, 3-4 police officers, i think a few civilian assistors, and 3 security officers, the only reason i managed to kill him was because i used ALL of my UMP ammo trying to kill him prior, ALL of my sidearms ammo, and then got lucky enough to fall back, and get a shotgun out, and i was lucky to have found a surviving officer who assisted in bringing him down, who ALSO had a shotgun.

Unless you also have a shotgun in a situation where your target has a shotgun, you are essentialy out of luck

[PaulB]

If someone has a shotgun in your face your pretty much fucked either way but if you know the shotgun is coming at you, you can simply focus on the person first and not rush the guy and just use cover for the shotgun to rush you.

This is something that does not happen, as Zeyon stated, he wiped out an entire swat team, 3-4 police officers, i think a few civilian assistors, and 3 security officers, the only reason i managed to kill him was because i used ALL of my UMP ammo trying to kill him prior, ALL of my sidearms ammo, and then got lucky enough to fall back, and get a shotgun out, and i was lucky to have found a surviving officer who assisted in bringing him down, who ALSO had a shotgun.

Unless you also have a shotgun in a situation where your target has a shotgun, you are essentialy out of luck

I think I was against three shotguns at Industrial they had no tactics what so ever I just took one by one out using a p90. I believe the situation you was in was Corleone back yard which only has one entry without boosting over using a player or a car I presume Lizard and Zeyon were just aiming at the entrance with shotguns you were pretty much fucked if you went through the entrance however you could of easily had a officer or a fellow clan member boost you so you could see over the fence and take shots at both of them, the whole "spray of a mag" is just due to Ceramic Plating and how god dahm OP it is.

[BlackDog]

In this situation it was not a 1 entry method, it was multiple and not in a backyard, but in a house and the entire corlone suburb zone by the end of it, but no one could get close without being shot down due to the damage it can cause, my main point though is the medkit issue that allows the tactic that was used, the Rush and Heal, rush in, healing at the same time, and your pretty set in terms of combat, though this is most effective with the shotgun, anything else and its pointless due to how many shots it will take to put down a target.

Rush the enemy, heal at the same time, blast them at point blank range causeing an almost if not a fatal wound, continue to heal more, kill next target, when stamina runs low, rush back to hideing spot and blast anyone who follows.

To me this is not a tactic we should want to be possible, and the FAS:2 medkit is the perfect solution to fix it.

Combat on LL should not be a place where an MMO styled Tank-DPS mentality works