[Sandelin]

Your Name: [L²:RP] Sandelin

Ban ID: 3842

Banned by: Please include the [L²]/[L²:M] tag. [L²:M] Toxic

Server: V4B1

Ban Reason: FailRP, stealing gov't vehicles without proper RP reason, Planning to hostage firemen without proper RP reason

Why should you be unbanned?: 

stealing gov't vehicles without proper RP reason:
First of all, I never picklocked a car, i just drove them there with Noot's car.

[font=open_sansregular, Arial, sans-serif]Planning to hostage firemen without proper RP reason:[/font]
[font=open_sansregular, Arial, sans-serif]I felt i was not apart of the planning to hostage the firemen because i just stod behind noot's car and heard them talking about taking a firetruck and take the firemen under fearrp or something like that, i was not really paying attention to that conversation. Also, it says that i was banned for planning to hostage the firemen (Rule 8.2 - Do not hostage a fireman when they are in your base to extinguish a fire.), So if would been apart of the planning, it would not be against the rules to plan a hostage of firemen. [/font]











Evidence: N/A

[Limelight Gaming]

The staff-members have received your unban-request, Sandelin.

It will take a while for it to be reviewed.

[Toxic]

Hello Sandelin,

You were an active participant in stealing government vehicles without proper roleplay reason. You don't need to be the one who broke into the vehicle in order to be just as involved in the plot to steal said government vehicle. You had one person hop out and take it, and then escorted it back to your base at Industrial without having attempted to contact the owner of said vehicle for the duration of your chop shop.

I was phased behind the three of you as you were all actively plotting to kill/hostage the firemen at their station in order to steal their fire engines. The two of you who still had weapons access were both armed and had fully planned to come back later to carry out your plan. Chop shops are intended to be low-key theft operations, not full blown raids on a fire station. Why did you feel that armed robbery -or potential murder- fell under your current roleplay character?

[Sandelin]

(I would also like an admin to review this case)

Hello Toxic,

This is an example, If a taxi driver gives someone a ride and the guy commits a crime is the taxi driver apart of it then? The only difference in this situation was that i knew whats going to happend, thats it. I see a chopshop as someone that steal cars and strip them down and sell the parts, in a reallife sit a government car (SSA Surban) have alot of good stuff you can earn alot of money of, example all the communication system that could be used to gain some very good information also a very good tool if you're doing a serious crime. So i see a really good roleplay reason here to steal a SSA Surban. So if this is not a proper rp reason so what is.

The firemen part was just a plan, if you have a plan does not mean you have to complete the plan, aslo theres a difference between planning and commiting. I would also never taken action in this plan if it were going to happen, and still, we were just planning, we did not commit that type of crime. If you followed us im pretty sure you would have seen me on the otherside of the car when they were planning this crime. Thats why I feel that I was not apart of this plan becaus im pretty sure you could see me at the otherside of the car.

Also, I would like to know why you didnt tell us that we were about to break a rule instead of just waiting for us to break the rule, i see that as pretty much baiting.

[Toxic]

Your example with a taxi driver is a poor analogy, you were all equally associated; a part of the same group performing illicit activities.

As far as the Suburban goes, you made no attempt to contact the owner to sell it back to him, as the rules state you have to sell the vehicle back to the original owner or to a person who has been duly informed that the vehicle is stolen and knows of the circumstances therein.

You had full intent to come back to commit crime against the firefighters had Noble and I not intervened sooner. There was no doubt or question to the act taking place, the only question was when. "We'll get back to them". Conspiracy to commit a crime is still a crime; as is planning to commit a bannable offense (which is bannable, proactive response).

I can't possibly be baiting you if I'm phased, not saying anything, not telling you to go out and intentionally break rules, and following you around discreetly. Watching you act as though you think I'm not present is not baiting. It does say something about your integrity though.
You have 12 hours to respond with meaningful evidence or proof as to why you should be unbanned or have your suspension reduced.

[greg]

Your example with a taxi driver is a poor analogy, you were all equally associated; a part of the same group performing illicit activities.

As far as the Suburban goes, you made no attempt to contact the owner to sell it back to him, as the rules state you have to sell the vehicle back to the original owner or to a person who has been duly informed that the vehicle is stolen and knows of the circumstances therein.

You had full intent to come back to commit crime against the firefighters had Noble and I not intervened sooner. There was no doubt or question to the act taking place, the only question was when. "We'll get back to them". Conspiracy to commit a crime is still a crime; as is planning to commit a bannable offense (which is bannable, proactive response).

I can't possibly be baiting you if I'm phased, not saying anything, not telling you to go out and intentionally break rules, and following you around discreetly. Watching you act as though you think I'm not present is not baiting. It does say something about your integrity though.
You have 12 hours to respond with meaningful evidence or proof as to why you should be unbanned or have your suspension reduced.

INVOLVED:

It would have helped if you said "you can't do that"

[SirWulf]

INVOLVED:

It would have helped if you said "you can't do that"

Would it have?  That is like asking for police to pull you over when you are about to go over the speed limit, or a doctor to remove your leg because it 'might be infected'.

There are posted rules, if there are questions you can use /help.  That is what it is for.  Every time you log in and exit the Welcome Screen by hitting F1, you are basically accepting a contract stating that you have read over the rules and will abide by them.  It is not up to the staff to hold your hand every time a 'what if' scenario may occur.  And the more hours clocked onto the server, the more the staff expects you to know.

[BlackDog]

You requested an Admin to review this and as such right now I see nothing more I can say, toxic has summed things up quite well.

Also donut, for the amount of time you have on our servers, we shouldnt have to tell you that  this isnt an acceptable thing to do.

If you ever, EVER think something your about to do, or are planning on doing may not be allowed, contact staff, if they dont get back to you, dont do it, dont do it until you get a clear sign off.

[Sandelin]

(I would like an admin to review this case)

Greetings again Toxic,

If you check the logs that day we got banend you can probably see that noot actually adverted something about if your car is missing contact me. Its pretty hard to know whos owning the car if its an government vehicle, so the easiest way was to advert about it then he would probably know that we had the car if he was not afk or didnt pay attention to the chat. If he was AFK or did not pay any the attention to the chat about hes car being stolen why is that our fault?. Also i dont see why im responsible to contact the owner if i did not even steal the car. Noot stole it and im pretty sure that he adverted about it. 

"We'll get back to them" 
How do you know if we were going to come back and complete the plan? Maybe we were about to plan a bit more thats why we'll get back to them. If you're commiting a serious crime you have to plan everything multiple times for it to work. We'll get back to them does not mean that we are going to kill/hostage them then steal their firetrucks. My dad as example, for like 25 years ago my dad went to prison for planning a bank robbery in Finland and he got 2-4 years for that im pretty sure. He got busted because he was outside the bank alot to see the security at the bank. The employees at the bank felt that my dad was very strange for being at the bank alot so they called the cops. My dad got arrested and when they searched his home they found some good evidence that my dad were about to commit a serious crime, but my dad denied the alligations in court but still got in prison. The thing in this situation was that we were about to do the same thing, go back alot and see how the EC:FD building is built to get a proper picture of the building and the security. You have to comeback some times to actually see how it looks and what the escape plan is.

(Rule 16.6 FailRP)
The rules says if you're a car thief you need to have a chop-shop, as we had also we had a proper BackroundRP. 
What's the reason for me being banned for this?

(Stealing government vehicles with out a proper rp reason)
As i said at my first post, Atleast my point of view of stealing an SSA Surban was to strip it down and sell the parts. Government vehicles  have alot of valuble stuff in them that you can earn alot of money by selling them to people that are about to commit a serious crime.

(Planning to hostage firemen without a proper rp reason)
There's no rule that say its not allowed to plan things. Also the reason was for PLANNING TO HOSTAGE FIREMEN, We never did hostage the firemen. Thats why i trying to say, If you heard us planning about to hostage the firemen and its not allowed why wait instead of just telling us, If I were in your position and heard this conversation would atleast asked for the reason and if its so against the rules to plan to hostage firemen i would tell them that its not allowed. It does not make anything better if you just wait for us to break a rule.

(Evidence)
All evidence you need is in the logs, In the logs you can see that i never lockpicked a car, never drove an stolen car, also if you were there all the time when we were planning everything you could probably hear that i didnt say much or nothing. So i really dont see how i was the part in this plan. The only thing i did was to sit in sgt. donuts & Noot Noot's car or drive them. I had a SIG SAUER and a KEVLAR thats it, No lockpick, No hostage rope. Only noot had lockpicks and rope.

(Other)
Toxic, i know your new and im not saying you're doing anything wrong but i feel like my ban was false, Noot & Donut did actually do something wrong by hostaging the police/ems, but i really feel that the other reasons was false. Im not saying this to protect them or trying to help them to get unbanend, just trying to get my self unbanned because i feel i really dont deserve a false ban. I really think you're a good moderator, you took the situation very calm and professional with Noble but i do not really agree with my ban reason.

I understand if Noot and Donut got longer bans because its not the first time for them being banned, but it is for me. I have almost 200 hours and never got any bans under that time. Im not saying that im perfect and havent broke any rule at all, im just trying to say that i really feel that i followed the rules in this situation and did not do anything wrong, but of course everyone have different opinions thats why i want to have other comments by other staff members. Why i want other comments by other staff members is not becaus you're not enough, we all are normal people and we all have other opinions about things and i want to know other staff members opinion about this ban/situation. 

Thanks!
Sandelin

[Toxic]

Conclusion: your chop shop had no RP background whatsoever other than a building with a wall around it, and you as well as your associates were not roleplaying as fitting to your characters by both acting and conspiring to take government workers hostage - and baiting the police into a car chase that caused you to reach that point - in a role that is meant to be discreet as well as avoiding attracting attention from law enforcement.

[BlackDog]

This UBR has been denied and closed at the handleing staffs request due to the accused not showing enough evidence or otherwise to change the decision