[Cicero]

Your Steam Name:
Cicero
Your Steam ID:

Limelight - Link watcher

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https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198288359039/
Name of Staff Member:
Marsh
Summary/Details:
Just for the record, I didn't want to make this report, I actually tried to reach out to Marsh for help but he blocked me and told me to go here.
So basically this all starts with a ban I had with him. I know you don't post here to dispute your ban, this is just where it starts. He uses a lot of speculation in his reply and instantly ends the report without any time for me to reply, most admins when dealing with UBR's would give time to reply to explain themselves so they don't ban someone for a situation they don't know about, which is what happened to me in my opinion. What marsh did is the complete opposite, he uses speculation and assumptions the whole report and ends it without letting me respond. It really shows here that he does not really care about other people and he wants these situations done and over with quick as possible, which is fine I get you don't want to spend to long on a case, but if you are trying to end it quickly where it doesn't help the player and only suits yourself, I have to ask why do you even want to be an admin if you don't really care about helping with situations or give them reasonable time? If you have limited time in your personal life, fair enough, that doesn't mean everyone has to work around his schedule. He needs a bit more compassion and willing to help others, as that's the point of an admin. 

Second instance I want to report is after this denial, I contacted him regarding some questions and asking if he could reopen the case as he missed a few details out or just answer me as I was puzzled and get some closure on the situation. He responded, shutting me down really quickly again but this time he tried to push me along to HR as he said deal with it with them, I did not want to make a staff report I just wanted my questions to be answered why push your duties on someone else? This is what players say if you have a problem with there actions they say go ask and Admin, you an actual admin and your telling me find someone else to deal with it when it's your job to deal with it and you have the powers to? He replies basically not answering my questions and repeating what he said in the report not taking in account what I said at all which to me I think should of really had him think about the report more and take more action, I contacted him to get answers not a reworded reply he got from his forum response, like he basically tells me why I got banned, I know why I saw in the report, I was contacting him to tell him he was wrong about some conclusions he jumped to in the report.

I then reply again, I said but in more detail for him to actually answer my question and not say why I got banned which I already know, for him to reply saying he can't find any evidence of what I said when he replied in a minute so he really did not care to even look and lie to my face implying he looked for evidence. Ignorance is not a defence, and you can't ban someone when you admittingly said you don't see any evidence, shouldn't you be looking to find ways to keep players on instead of looking at ways the suspend them? Shows he doesn't want to take the extra time or passion to find me innocent as a big fat ban and denial is quick and easy to do. That type of attitude is negative and will kill the community, you shouldn't jump to conclusions. 

 In the reply he gave me he was was also taking digs and being condescending and somewhat mocking about a concern I had and to tell me he doesn't like being asked about  cases, if he let the UBR stand more then 1 day and 1 reply maybe I wouldn't contact him regarding more information. After this he again basically brushed me to the side and told me to deal with it accordingly without in any way or shape or form telling me how, how is this helping players? He's basically saying go deal with it yourself with not guidance on how to do it. Again shows he doesn't have the passion to help people, something an Admin needs.

I replied asking him where can I deal with it and he blocks me, so that's why I made a staff report,  again this shows he doesn't take time to help people, aI get it being bugged about your admin duties would be annoying and he wants to be doing his own thing but I need to repeat this, he is not being forced to be an admin, if he does not have the time to be a good admin, step down, take some care in not building your dupes and help people with more admin needs, you are helpful in the server with dupes, I appreciate that but you don't need to be an admin to do that and don't deserve it for that, to me it seems you just want that admin title so you can use it's tools that normal builders can't hence why you put loads of time on your dupes, more time then actually helping people contacting YOU about situations that YOU didn't put enough time in to get right.

 I do see you as more of a teacher then an admin when on the server, you help new people and make dupes to support roleplay, but you don't really take much passion in being an admin, I doubt there is much passion to have about being an Admin but again, if you don't like it, don't do it no one is forcing you. 


I like what you do for the server, but you are not helping people as an Admin, many times on the server when you're the only one on doing your dupes and whatever there are big situations like mass RDM where we contact you and you don't react until 5 minutes later when your not needed because your in the middle of your dupe. If you want more time to build, then step down from being an admin, don't take this as an attack, I just want you to either take your role more seriously, or step down. As an Admin your main job is to be a servant to the players, not a literally one but putting them before yourself, your there to serve others, Admins are obviously not there for themselves only or that would make you a normal player you put the players first before your dupes and such. It may seem unfair but again, step down if you don't like that, as there is probably someone who does like doing that.

Again I didn't want to make a staff report, this could of been avoided if you gave more time in my ban, or gave more time when I dm'd you instead of doing the same thing where you say what you want to say then block. Imagine if all admins did this? Nothing would be solved with that attitude, imagine if I did that in game? You picked me up from a rule breakage, I explain my side and block you from responding or punishing me? See how bad that is if you flip the sides over but yet you do it to the players? You treat me like you really don't care what your actions do, yeah I got banned for half a week no skin of your nose, but for me it's pretty annoying treat the people your serving with some actual care since admins are kinda like the customer service for Limelight, and the last thing I would expect from customer service is to block me when I had a query, customer service don't have to help people, but they do because they chose to do that job, they're sole purpose is to satisfy people, you make the slightest effort, if any at all to try to help or satisfy me, you cut corners where you could and treated me like you didn't care because what happens to me doesn't affect you.

I would like to end this saying again, I did not want it to end up here, if you just spent even 5 minutes speaking to me, or opened the UBR more then a day, none of the other stuff that happened between us would of happened. I feel like making this report would be the only way to actually talk to someone about my issue instead of being blocked, shut down and etc, you basically blocked all communications with me to not deal with the situation. To me you seemed to talk down to me because you were in a position of power, if I did that to you I bet I would of be banned for harassment or something similar. 

Regards
-iDankCai

[MrMarsh]

Dear Cicero,
thank you for your concern.

As you report is quite lengthy ill answer to each individual passage before concluding my reply so you get the detailed response you are seeking. Although it may be worth noting that i already provided most core answers in our discord voncersation and the ban description.

---

1.

context
There has been no PR against you its been a @call (not a !report or PR) - thus there was no option for you to reply other then a sit. I dont know the exact situation on that day but it may have been likely that i had other calls to attent to or misstakenly believed you to still be offline. As for that I have to apologise though a dicussion would not have impacted the penalty as it is not based on assumptions but on mere observation.


no time? why be an admin?

Why do i be an admin then? Because i do actually enjoy helping people (Limelight and its community is a rather big deal to me as you can imagine) and a part of this is making sure rule violations are responded to and in best case prohibited adequatly.

---

2.

the appeal / "reopening" the report
You appealed your ban. In filing an appeal you have all the time in the world to include evidence, layout your case in a detialled manner and put up carefull and precise arguments to help us conclude the case. If you are unhappy with the turnout out of your appeal you could have been more percise in your argumentation.
And no (unlike your claim) you did not asked me to "reopen the case" when you started spamming me on discord. You merely told me your opposition to the denial and immediatly started arguing. Im happy to conclude our discord chat in this report for full transparency.

our discord conversation / "shutting you down"
As you will soon remember you did not ask me a single question in your discord DM. This is the most cruicial part as to why i simply blocked you after realising that a brief response didnt resnoate with you.
Our conversation litterarly started like this:
"Exuse me I had a few things i wanted to say about the you denying my UBR"

Whilst i can understand your frustration you have to understand that your concerns and opinion regarding my decision making belong into your appeal at first - and if they live on in a report.
I do not "reopen" cases based on you texting me your opinion about it. I can imagine you are not happy with it.
If everyone were to contact me about their bans/penatlys in the same pace you did via private channels my discord would be a complete mess. Thats why i blocked you as you didnt seem to understand the proper channels or form for your concern. 

If you contacted me "to get answers" you should have included a question.

So to summarize: it is perfectly understandable if you are opposed to a ban - but please use the proper channels.

---

3.


lying / "no evidence" - your customer
I did not lie. Thats a fairly rude assumption to be frank. I took quite some both reviewing the initial @call ahead of your ban and reviewing your case afterwards. If you were to reproduce our conversation authenticly (hence why ill leave it attached to this post) you would see that i said there was no evidence for you trying to sell the car off. This aspect would have been very easy for you to dispute if you would have simply given/remembered the name of the person you claimed was your customer.

As you were unable to provide that information i checked via various tools to have a close look on your previous  movements and player interactions - none of wich document a a supposed customer or related payments. The only thing i could find related to your theft was the following pm:

[16:07:11] Cicero (STEAM_0:1:164046655) said "./pm huge haha u got no car fg"

thus it is not some crazed suspicion but a carefully vetted observation.

Once again in your second reply you merely continued to argue rather then to ask a question or disprove my observation. So if you accuse me of lying - it may be good for you to stay fact based during this report. As i am not one twisting reality here.

---

4.
"rushed me to the side"
As i already explained spamming staff or arguing with them over private channels is indeed not the right way.
Once again though id like to counter your inacurate recollection of our DM:
I do not mind to asnwer questions regarding a case or other LL-related matters. You didnt asked a single question though. Instead you choosed to put down a brief dispute that was not aimed at a productive debate but simply aimed on me removing/altering the penalty.
Penaltys and appeals have to be fair - we all put in a great effort to achieve that - but they are not democratic. Its not up to you if you get a penalty. It is up to you to oppose it if you deem it injust.
If you are unhappy with the timespan of your appeal you could have provided more arguments/evidence to it.

---

5.


So why is he an admin?
Quite frankly that is not your decision. And i honeslty dont see how this is related to your case other then the fact that it helps to illustrate the impolite and very unproductive nature of what you deemed to be a discussion or "questions"

response times
Although at this point i have very little confidence in your claims beeing fact based (and i doubt that i frequently let mass rdmers off / fail to respond properly) i think you may be refering to a singular case we had about 1 week ago where we supposed proppusher. In those kind of cases it may be wise at times to spectate the player briefly prior to starting the sit to gain some insights and context to the situation. This of course can not be witnessed by the playerbase - since our attempts on spectating a player would be rather miserable if anyone would notice. - i hope this explains your question (if it was one)

I took more then an hour preparing this reply (checking logs, reading through our previous correspondence)

---

To explain your ban

You were banned as you:


1. disconnected immediatly after stealing the car (with no further effort to resell it) - this is a no go with any crime/rp
3. did not have the base required for the rp (you merely bought the doors on the run) - your explanation does not make it undone

2. lacked the proper role to commit such a crime (not to mention that the theft itself was done infront of a witness)

The fact that you message Huge_Poo "haha you got no car fg" as the last thing you did in regards to the theft before logging of does proof the fundamanetal lack of any effort to resell the car or to otherwise conduct the rp properly. As I were able to observe your various altercations with said player this evening its safe to say that this action was intendet to further your fight rather then to start a genuine car theft rp.

All those 3 points but the last one are factuall observations. The last one regarding your pm is the situational context.

Under those circumstances i have to insist that the penalty you were given is fact based - not as you would like to suggest "based on assumptions"

Id also like to add that said penalty could have easily been avoided by proper compliance with our ruleset.

---

To summarize

I am glad that you found the right channels to adress your concern.
You had a fair chance to make your case as convincing as possible during your appeal.
Bans are appealed - not disputed via discord dms.
There is a difference between a productive discussion including questions and a rant/argument.
At no point did you ask me any question (feelf free to check). I dont see how i can answer something where nothing is asked.
Your ban is not as you'd like to claim based on assumption but on factual observation. I am confident fellow staff members would have came to a similar conclusion.
Whilst you are right to adress your concerns regarding our staff to HR. It is not up to you to pick our staff positions. I dont see how this would be relevant to this dicussion either.

Further more i would like to ask of you that our discussion will remain fact based. As that is a cruicial necessity for a fair and productive outcome. Your initial report does raise some slight concern.

I hope i managed to adress your concerns and I am happy to answer any quesions you may have.

with kind regards,
Marsh

[MrMarsh]

to document said exchange we had on discord

[Cicero]

I don't think you could of missed the point more.
1) By report I mean the appeal.  Also you say it was made by observation? I'm sorry where you there? No so don't try to to tell me that looking at a bunch of logs and filling in the blanks is proper observation that should be a supplement not your main go to. Half of those logs you shown aren't even relevant and you didn't even check correctly That 'pm' I made clearly had a dot, as I was showing the new player I was trying to recruit as SHE had problems with Huge not me and she wanted to say that as I stole the car for her, the payment was making a clan relation with her and recruiting her. I wanted to say this but again you blocked me on discord and try to blame me for not asking any questions? I had 2 messages, one of which was saying I literally wanted to talk to you about it. The other was a reply to what you said. So don't say it's my fault I didn't ask any questions, you piled me with nonsense I had to reply and when I actually wanted to talk about it you blocked me? I mean the first reply you gave you didn't want to even talk to me. So don't stand here and talk like you would of actually had a debate, you can say you would of all you want but to quote your first sentence 'If that is your concern you may be better of contacting HR not me' 



 Ironic you spend a whole hour on a formal report I only made because you wouldn't speak to discord about my concerns? But if it goes to a report you plan all this and look into it thoroughly? I don't appreciate having to spend time myself to make a report to get some actual information, people shouldn't have to do this to get information from you.

2) Oh yes let me get all the evidence of a ban I had no information on, so you fill me in on information and then conclude it? Yes I really had all the time in the world when you closed the thread after informing me of the ban. Your acting like I was psychic and I automatically know why I was banned, you brief few words on the ban list doesn't help me turn something into a essay.
For the record, I did not spam you at all, and I know I did not ask you, but again I wasn't even given time to respond to you I had to respond to your first pile of rubbish before even getting to talk about what I wanted to say, and if I am trying to tell you information on a case, isn't it pretty damn common sense I want the case to be reopened? Is it really necessary I need to ask for the case to be opened more then one reply from you? 
If you had more compassion and put more time in cases then their wouldn't be a need for people to DM you and ask you would there so don't blame me for messaging you. You tell me to put it in the right channel? What channel the only communication about this situation is the actual appeal and you closed it in one reply, so don't just say 'choose the right channel'  and expect it to be magically fixed, you did not tell me where to do it, if anything there isn't anywhere else, you left me with one option and that was to report it as you wouldn't speak to me or reopen the proper channel, this report is not a proper channel to talk about my ban is it? Even though you mockingly say I finally found the right channel. 
I did not contact you for information on my ban, I already know that and it's somewhat patronising I am obviously here to dispute it but you wouldn't let me dispute it in the actual appeal, so what do you expect? Me to just deal with something I do not understand or agree with because it's no skin of your nose?
I wasn't texting you my opinion I am not that stupid, even if you make me out to that way by assuming I was there, I was clearly replying to the information you gave me and saying why it is wrong? How is that my opinion on it? 

3) You're telling me you found evidence of the whole case relating to my new statement in one minute then? Of course you didn't so that's a flat out lie.
If you really checked the logs like you really heavily implied you did you would notice that pm was put in chat not a pm, showing it to someone else as they were new and wanting to send that as a PM as I gave the car to her. I would of thought with your the great observation you made you could of seen this? I wanted to tell you this but again you blocked me, but I guess that's my fault isn't it?
See how I'm saying you assumed things? You saw that in logs didn't properly look and assumed it was a pm from me straight away. Do you see it now? 
You also try to blame me for arguing with your assumption and not ask any questions? I'm sorry but in conversations you don't ignore people and say what you want to say, as what you did to me, but instead of waiting for my reply back to what you wanted to say you block me.

4) Didn't spam you, wasn't arguing, just telling you what I wanted to say in the appeal. How is correcting your assumptions arguing? What am I supposed to do, be told something that ins't true and deal with it? Stop blaming me and trying to paint me in a bad light by saying I'm spamming, arguing implying what I was doing was just being annoying and not constructive.
And put more arguments into it? Thought I shouldn't be arguing, maybe I could of done that on PM's if you didn't block me, or better yet, didn't close the UBR after one reply. Also I didn't ask to be lectured about how I can't make punishments, I already know this with 555 hours believe it or not, quit trying to patronise me and feed me irrelevant information.


5) Never said it was my decision, is asking you a question a decision now? And there's nothing impolite when I see a flaw and call out what may be causing it, how as an admin can you not take constructive questions positively but instead blame me for asking them? If there wasn't a problem there wouldn't be a complaint.
There you go assuming situations and complaints, I've contacted you many times in personal experience when your the only admin, I remember one time, and I was calling saying someone is breaking fearrp, he disconnected from rp about 2-3 minutes later of breaking it and then I get a reply a few minutes after saying your observing the situation when it already passed and another rule breakage happened? This is just one incident, there are many more, not sure about the situation with lampard as I wasn't there but looking at his report on you, you've kind of done the same thing to him.

6) Yeah I know why you banned me you made it quite clear in your one reply on my UBR. I know why I was banned but I wanted to explain all those situations instead of you saying i'm insta guilty. As I pointed one out earlier, you assumed something to be a PM, to you that was a 'well thought out' observation' but I showed you it was wrong, I wanted to do this on my UBR, couldn't do it, I wanted to do it on discord, still wasn't allowed but it was my fault you made a paragraph for me to respond before I could even state what I wanted to.  Maybe if you listened and didn't talk over and block we wouldn't of gotten this far would we? 
You also said I had further altercations with the person I robbed? That's a complete lie, because I did not once speak to him except one moment in OOC where he was asking me something.

All my communications with someone who should be an Admin is a concern for me from things you've stated here, from your UBR to our DM conversation, a lot of things you have said are not based on facts.

[MrMarsh]

Ill file a more detailed response later on as im currently a bit busy.

Meanwhile:

1. the reasoning behind your ban has been explained to you on various.

You cant deny that you logged off immediatly after taking the car.
Nor can you falsify the other aspects.

2. I am not a hotline. If you think the proper channels dont do you justice i am not the one to blame. You can adress me with any concern as long as you do it properly odds are we have a constructive conclusion.

So please tell us (preferably to the point) what i did wrong - other then not acting on your discord message.
I cant unban people just because they send me a discord message telling me how they disagree with my judgement.

It would be great if we could approach this discussion a bit more pragmatical, as page long statements will probably not contribute to a proper solution.

[MrMarsh]

And yes i was there (we have the ability to be invisbile, no clip and various other tools that enable us to observe a players actions to a great detail)

[Cicero]

1) Yeah did I ask for the reasoning of it? I doubt you're reading my replies now.
I told you when I stole the car, it was specifically for her, not for me, so when I gave it to her RP is finished, stole a car, sold it, rp finished I have no more involvement in the car.
I showed you many times where you've been false.

2) I never said you're a hotline, I said you're an admin or customer service for Limelight.  And don't tell me to use other channels when you damn well know they're not appropriate for my topic, that's LITERALLY setting me up for failure.

I never once asked you to unban me JUST because I sent you a message. I clearly messaged you because you were wrong about some of your points. I won't sit here and repeat paragraphs, go read my posts if you are interested.

[MrMarsh]

To start of this reply ill first have to clarify a misstake on my side wich I apologise for. It is important to note though that this does not (not to the best of my knowledge) change the circumstances of the ban.

The supposed buyer for the car turned out to be the player "meätbölls" (STEAM_0:1:180186083).

I did not assume this person to be the supposed buyer for 2 main reasons:

1. the "buyer" commited the crime alongside Cicero, making him an accomplice rather then a buyer
2. there was no monetary exchange either way (unlike it was claimed in the UBR)

thus I initally took that player to be a random encounter, or a ridealong since it is not uncommon for rookie players to join fights or jump into stolen vehicles.
Though Cicero did remember odd symbols in the name i originally failed to recognise "meätbölls" as the person he alluded to. That is in part due to the fact that said player didnt buy the car and instead joined in as an accomplice as well as due to me overlooking "ä" and "ö" as odd symbols. The last part is a pretty stupid thing but as those letters are very common in the german language i managed to overlook them as odd sysmbols whilst looking for cyrillic, arabic or emoji symbols).

So in regards to that misstake I sincerly apologise.

Yet i want to point out that this still leaves the theft with great flaws. Like the lack of a base, the improper jobtitle and a improper sale. To the best of my knowledge cars are stolen to sell them off to the owner or another party not for oneself / ones own party.

I also want apologise for overlooking the dot in the pm in my initial review case. Thank you for pointing that out. However this too does not alter the fact that there were (to the best of my knowledge) no proper proceedings in place to sell the car. I mentioned it to illustrate the lack of a serious effort to resell the car, and as an insight on the circumstances (beeing your party having altercations with judges/huge poos party). Considering that as you claimed said person was with your group and that you stole the car together I also dont see a major difference between you or your ally taunting huge. The pm and your instructions on the PM illustrate that there was an effort to taunt the owner whilst no effort to sell the car was documented.

So those corrections beeing made i apologise for the misstake, though i insist that the theft had severe flaws some of which made its proper assestment quite hard (like the supposed buyer stealing the car together with the theft).

One more reason why I denied the ubr were inaccuracys (wether deliberate or accidental) like the claim that the car was sold. Since there were no payments, this claim can not be held up, nor can i find someone who payed cicero. This left me with the correct assestment that there was no buyer (one of the several flaws of this theft).
It is not my responsibility for how people phrase their ubrs or what they claim. If someone complains i overlooked a buyer where there was none, i cant find that person. Thus i can not correct an issue i did not make.

That beeing out of the way I am happy that we manage to solve that missunderstanding.

---

As for the other claims.

I am not "litterarly setting you up for failure". You seemed to have several complains and concerns regarding my conduct. Thus i set you up with the right channels to adress it to. Yes i appreciate critic and suggestions and i am open to answer any reasonable question but since your discord DM was just a list of accusations rather then a constructive proposal, question or inquiry. i figured you may be best adressing those concerns to HR - which you did (suceeding in adressing those concerns properly)

Nor am I - blaming you for not asking any questions - i am instead correcting a falsehood that in my view is cruicial to your complaint. Initialy you complained that i did not adress/answer the questions you messaged me on discord and instead appruply ignored you. My point is that you never asked any questions but instead listed a number of complains that to their core are identical to the initial ubr - which was denied as those complains did not alter the lack of:

1. a base
2. a buyer
3. a proper job title
4. your presence immediatly after commiting a felony infront of witnesses (disconnect)

Penaltys are not democratic. A staff member assests the situation and issues an according penalty. If you feel like that staff member made a misstake you can adress it in an ubr (which you did). If you feel the staff member treated you injustly you can adress it in a staff report (which you did too).

Thus i dont see what your intentions were when messaging me your complains for a second time. If you were to ask me a question perhaps i could have left you with a satisfactory answer.
Granted i did made a misstake in overlooking "meätböll" though this did not alter the flaws of the theft, nor did you put in a constructive effort to clear up that misstake (a misstake that was based on his odd behavior as well as your false claim in saying that you paid him).
Under those circumstances you can understand why i choosed to ignore you at some point. Whilst i am open to suggestions, questions and inquirys i can not alter penalties based on a discord chat nor was there any other point in that particular conversation, if one may call it that (since it was quite obvious that we would not come to a agreement).

You have to understand that you are not the first player to adress penaltys outside the regular channels, and that there is little we can do for you outside those channels (as well as there tents to be little chance for constructive results or discussions).

As for my appearent lack of compassion and time (which i strongly reject - both as a fact or as a piece of constructive discourse). I have spent several hours on your case and complains by now, whilst also dealing with a variety of other peoples concerns, complains, questions and inquirys. I can only urge you to:

1. keep this conversation on a constructive level and about your actual concerns
2. be more accurate (as some inaccuracys undermine your credibility and my ability to confirm or falsify certain aspects of your case)

Especially if you accuse me of lacking time, effort, compassion or the abiity to discuss something constructively i can not understand why you feel the need for various inaccuracies, a fairly rude imagery "your first pile of rubish" or out of context banter.

So lets keep this report down to the facts and your initial complaints. Which are as far as i can understand are:

1. my quick denial of your appeal
2. overall lack of compassion time
3. me blocking you on discord

1.
Whilst i now that the denial of my ubr was fairly quick you had all the time in the world to prepare it and include all the information nescessary to the case. Which you seemingly failed to do, leading to my inability to confirm your claim that you had a buyer. I can not find something that does not exist.
We are obligated to solve cases withing a reasonable time frame. You wouldnt be happy if I would leave your appeal open for days or weeks till you get unbanned anyways.
Your appeal itself did not contradict any of the aspects that lead to you beeing banned (improper role, insufficient rp foundation) thus a denial is logical consequence.

2.
I spent over 90h on the server along last month not including posts, offline & forum conversations or other work (like clan and event preperations). Whilst it may appear to you that i do lack time for you in particular, i can assure you that i am more then engaged with this community and have intention to do my best for it. Otherwise it would be rather pointless spending all that time and effort on a project that one is not properly engaged in. I dont know where your get your information in that regard but it seems highly subjective.

3.
As i already explained I am not obligated or otherwise inclined to hear out people repeating their complains regarding penaltys via direct messages, unless those are legit concerns or factual corrections. I had more then just one occasion where people would contact me on discord or via forum messages telling me how wrong my conclusions are without any effort to back that claim up. Usually as i did in your case too, I proceed by explaining the reasoning behind my actions and directing them to the more appropriate channels as i did in your case which is a fair method. As i said penaltys are not democratic, though if you can point out a misstake i am glad to correct it.
Thats what your ubr is for. Since both your ubr and your discord complains were inaccurate i had no way to act on them.
I now understand that there has been a minor detailed that has been overlooked though that
1. could have been easily avoided through a more accurate statement (if i look for a buyer i look for a buyer)
2. does not change the severe flaws in that theft that (given your experience) should have been avoided

[Cicero]

About the UBR:
1) I have told you numerous times I was doing it as a favour to recruit her to my clan, I had no ties with her prior, and even if she was part of my faction where does it say I can't steal a car for my friend? I did want material payment, people do this type of stuff all the time, do a favour to get them on their good side in hopes of recruiting them. Also you're saying I said I asked for payment, I didn't stop putting words in my mouth.
2) She wasn't an accomplice, that's like saying if someone did Hitman RP the man who hired them is an accomplice. All I did was lockpick it and drive it out the city and give it to her, your saying I'm giving inaccuracies when your here giving me all the 'new people do this and that' again you are assuming not fact based but telling me to be? I told you the reason, you cannot prove otherwise as you were not there so don't try to look at some logs and make a whole story about it as that's really frustrating when you get this story stuck in your head and don't want to believe me telling you the situation.
3) I thought the doors are glitched because they were only a day prior, what have I learned from punishing me for this? It's the servers fault misleading me not my fault. Why should I even have a base when I am delivering the car directly to someone I stole the car knowing I was doing a job for someone. Why do I need a base just to deliver it that's completely stupid, even though I did buy a base and correct myself I did that to insure I wouldn't be punished not for RP as again I was delivering the car.
4) I thought you made a thorough investigation but you miss basic details like that that really affect the outcome?
5) Still my job was a Genocidal Warlord, a warlord is a commander of a militia despite what you may think it means, my militia RP is specifically a criminal militia, as a leader am I not allowed to take part? 

The issue is you not taking time for me to reply, I didn't know the information on my ban, hence the appeal to get information then I can respond defending myself, do you want me to be psychic and automatically know and defend myself? That' why you need more then one reply, your reply told me the information of my ban, and then I can defend myself, but oh no I can't because that's the last reply. That's what you should be apologising, the many mistakes and assumptions you make are just the icing on the cake.

Reply to the other claims:
1) I shouldn't have to make a staff report every time because you close the case too soon and won't let me talk to you. I wasn't making a complaint to you I was there to inform you on mistakes you made. I wasn't accusing you of anything I was informing yoy. Why should I see HR to inform you about mistakes YOU made on MY ban appeal? That doesn't make sense, so getting me to cry to HR about my ban is setting me up to failure since you dealt the ban not them. As I did not want to make a report I wanted to appeal my ban.
2) I've repeated this, before I can ask anything you give me a reworded copy and paste from the appeal explaining my ban, it's pretty obvious I know the reason now isn't it? I'm not going to do what you did and ignore what you say and spam my questions as that's rude and not how you have a conversation. I was clearly their to talk about my appeal as I mentioned in the first line.
3) I never said bans are democratic so don't see why your saying that seems irrelevant. 
4) No I don't understand why you said you only said what you wanted to say and block me so I can't reply.
5) I do not care if you spent many hours on this report, If you spent only more then 1 hour on my appeal or more hours in game helping people you wouldn't need to be here for hours would you. You have spent more time here defending YOURSELF then helping ME or anyone for that matter, and the only reason is because it's a formal report and not replying gets you in trouble, unlike me private messaging you or on my UBR where no punishment would of been given. 
6) I did NOT have all the time, I had to make a UBR to first even get the details of why I was banned then deny it before I can fairly defend myself, which I have said 2 times in this post and many times in previous post but you keep on ignoring it. I'll say this again, as and Admin you should find reasons to keep players in not send them away. 
7) No I think you lack time for others, yeah you comment a lot on the forums so what so does everyone else, you make dupes for clans and do events? So do others so what. I am saying I see a lack of time of you helping people ON AN ADMIN LEVEL. Even today I made a report in game asking for a prop raise when the server was quiet and not many people were on and not even a response was given for that. Or the other call I tried to make me asking you to save Zoomies dupe he made for me as he got banned, you had all the tools to acess his props like save it then I could save it from you but I have to wait for him to get unbanned and risk him loosing the many hours work he did because you coudn't be asked to give the extra bit of effort. 
8) No you're not, by why do you think you received them in the first place, how about deal with the root problem and not the supplements. The fact you didn't even give time to show you your mistakes and say what you wanted to and blocked me shows that.
 
I'm starting to get a feel your skimming through what I am saying and it's starting to frustrate me.

[MrMarsh]

You can believe me that i read every word you wrote. I hope you do the same.

So as for the first talking points regarding the ban. I once again have to repeat myself (as the same points have been brought up again - whith no additional foundation that would dissprove or otherwise alter them). This time it seems however we are getting to a level were we are able to sum it up a little:

1. You told me you sold it - hence im looking for a buyer.

2. She took the car with you - if you commit crimes together you become an accomplice.
Once again you seem to be very selective in your description of the event. I have to insist that you stick to the truth as this is part of the reason why we are having this debate in the first place (and as this is complicating the matter unescessarily).

3. You still didnt have a base, nor did anyone stop you from trying to buy one or test it prior to the theft (which you could and should have done)

4. I am glad to correct my misstakes (2 to be precise, one of which could have been easily avoidable if you would do the same) none of which changed the circumstances.

5. A warlord is not a car theft.

This will be my last reply on the circumstances of your ban as we once again repeat ourselves. Im open to discuss anything i have left open but it appears we will fail to find common ground here (which is one of the reasons why this staff report is a rather suitable channel for your concerns).

---

1. You had the ban reason - you had the opportunity to ask. Yes i admit i could have left it open for a little longer, yet if all you do in your appeal is to offer few, implausbile explanations accompanied by inaccurate statements or falsehoods I am not in a position to help you with that.
The difference between "informing someone on a misstake" and an "accusation" is little more then chronotation. If you feel i made a grave misstake HR is the best contact for you to reach out to.

2. If you repeat your same claims, odds are I will have to repeat the same answer. (Take the time to compare our conversation with the ubr)

4. see point 2.

5. I tried to help you. This has proven to be a rather difficult task as this whole debate here seems to be less focused on you requiring help but instead revolves around whos to blame for what.

Ill try my best to help you though i dont expect you to believe that. The problem is that we dont seem to be on the same page for the most part. Its hard to help you if our conversation is kept on such a hostile level.
Occasionaly i do require some information from you in order to be able to help you in the first place (like it was the case with the supposed buyer). If that information is incorrect it can be utterly difficult to do that. We all make misstakes but in order for us to conclude this debate on a satisfactory level we will need to be willing to correct and admit them, and most importantly keep ourselves focused on a constructive debate.

And yes of course i will correct you on those misstakes especially if they are used to put out an inaccurate record of my conduct or actions. You have every right to do so yourself.

---

As for the last points:

1. Clan bases usually do not get propraises unless its for an event or something similiar. You were not the only clan getting turned down on such a request that day. Nor is that in any way unusual. Propraise are generally ment to support larger rps and events, not to bypass the max proplimit of 300p which is accessible through reps.
2. I gave you the percise instructions you and zoomies required. Im not the one that banned him nor am i the one that broke the rules.

Im not completely sure what you are refering to in point 8.

I honestly do not know what exactly you are looking for or what you are trying to get (other then the clarification that has already been provided), though I hope that I can help you.

[Night]

Hi DankCai.

First of all, thank you for writing such a detailed thread on this. Overlewd and I have reviewed this and have came to our conclusion, so I'll run you through it.

We'll start by addressing what seemed to kick this off, the unban request.

It is somewhat normal for staff to sometimes conclude their unban requests without waiting for the person appealing to reply when the decision made is obvious, however, in this situation you werent spoken to in-game and I can understand this would leave you a bit confused. I would have expected the appeal to have served as a way for to communicate with Marsh about the circumstances leading up to the ban as this wasnt addressed in-game with you, but sadly this didnt happen. Whilst reviewing this report, I noticed that another member of staff raised a concern on the appeal via a hidden message which wasnt acknowledged by Marsh until this was brought up in front of the rest of the admin team.

Then I noticed that you brought up how put a dot before one of the PM's that Marsh claimed you sent, obviously this is a mistake but I imagine had the appeal been left open, you could have addressed this with Marsh. To address one of the statements you made in your DM's with Marsh, specifically the part mentioning where you dont appreciate PM's being used as evidence in the courthouse, sometimes this is a necessity in order to highlight what behaviour we're talking about. In this case, Marsh felt like the first PM quoted showed malicious intent which, if it were sent, I'd have to agree there however it wasnt The second PM though I'm not sure if it was entirely needed to post, as this could have just been referenced as another unrelated incident which happened earlier in the day, and if you were confused about this then it could have been addressed privately. If you'd like, I can edit that comment out as l've just described however I do ask in the future you take note of Image, Signature and Avatar Rule 6, as this says that private messages can be shown if it's being used as evidence. In this case however, the evidence was unrelated to the offence you were banned for.

To address the situation you had on Discord with Marsh, I'm not sure if I'm looking at the entirety of the DM'S but I'll assume that what Marsh posted is it.

Staff are encouraged to redirect to HR if they feel like there's a level of uncertainty to the actions they've done or if a player has a complaint in regards to how that staff member has behaved, but they're expected to try to resolve the situation as best as they can before this. I don't like being DM'd on Discord too much either so I can understand where Marsh is coming from on that front, but I'm confident that had he spent a little while discussing the case with you (as should have been done on the appeal) then we wouldn't have came this far.

In regards to your comments about how/why Marsh is an admin, that's a matter for him and HR. Throughout my time on the staff team across the years, Marsh has done a fairly good job.

That said, we're all human and mistakes happen, and I think it's clear that a mistake has been made here in regards to how the case was handled and we need to fix it up.

I've spoken to Marsh privately and the matter will be dealt with intemally, and youwe got my apologies that this has happened. Whilst I've been speaking to Marsh about this case, he's happy to substitute the ban (9646) with a permanent warning instead, which I'll be issuing upon conclusion of this report as well as removing the ban off record.

I'll leave this open for a bit to allow you to make any more comments or if you believe I've failed to address something, then you're more than welcome to bring that up too.

Cheers.

[Cicero]

Yeah I can agree to everything you said.
The only thing I would like to add is that I was contacting Marsh not regarding his Admin behaviour, but about the appeal as I wanted to add to it. The DM conversation you saw was the whole conversation. And it seemed irrelevant to me to ask HR about my ban since he was the one who issued it, If I was concerned about his admin behaviour rather then my appeal then it would be appropriate to redirect me to HR. The only reason I brought it to a Staff Report because he blocked off communications with me entirely so I couldn't even discuss the ban with him fully.


Anyway thank you for responding and sorting out the issue I feel that the issue has been resolved and i'm assured that this type of thing won't happen again.

[Night]

No worries, I understand it was a last resort and I'm sorry it had to come to that.

Thank you for the report, as mentioned this will be addressed internally to ensure further incidents don't occur.

Concluded.