[Apex]

Scamming should be classified in two parts

Absolute scamming: When someone promises to pay for items/goods/services but doesn't deliver after receiving payment.

(IC situations occur where this is a normal occurance: Criminal protection services, drug crime etc, by lumping these types into this kind of rule, you forbid the RP types connected to them.)

Situational scamming: When someone downplays ability/throws shots/allows negative actions, after receiving payment.

(Same point as above, by applying this to IC situations, you eliminate all RP types connected to the action in question.)

The first is point blank and typically enforceable with logs or screenshots of chats.

The second is harder to prove and far less enforceable.  I can fight 5v1 some days, other days I might lose 3 before winning a 1v1.  You'd have to be able to prove the person did what they did intentionally, which is pretty much impossible without them admitting as such.

There basicly no real method to apply a "anti-scamming" rule into the server that doesnt inadvertently destroy entire RP sub sets that rely on actions similar to some type of scam.

In the end beyond the most basic type such as the example listed "Dont run up and grab peoples dropped stuff right after they drop it unless YOU are the one it was intended for" are uninforcable in an IC context and enforcment in an Ic situation should in no way be attempted.

Seems tricky because obviously, there are really good RPs connected with scamming; such as money laundering, etc. 

Yet there is no RP in someone (to keep things relevant) taking out a loan, giving all his money to a friend and then saying "i gots nothin" before disconnecting sometime later.

Edit: Some also might argue there is no RP in setting up a bank with massive interest rates and unreasonable loan conditions that are hidden within a very long and monotone contract.


Matter of perspective I guess.




I'm glad LL is growing out of it's shell in terms of RP but I'm not sure how it will adapt.

[BlackDog]

Seems tricky because obviously, there are really good RPs connected with scamming; such as money laundering, etc. 

Yet there is no RP in someone (to keep things relevant) taking out a loan, giving all his money to a friend and then saying "i gots nothin" before disconnecting sometime later.

(Ive already seen a situation where HR signed off on this, the guy lost a a lambo or some other rare car after he failed to repay the loan he took in enough time.

Basicly a guy needed a lump sum fast, he got a loan with his lambo put up as collateral with the agreement set to pay it by a set date, otherwise the car would no longer be his.

He failed to meet the deadline and lost the car. 

Some may call it a scam, but in situations like this they did agree to the terms, and they willingly put up the collateral.

Other than deals with collateral put up there really is no way to force players to pay other than ICly targeting their character at all times with your crime group they made the deal with until they cave in.

In the end, no one forced that guy to put up the car for collateral, and no one can force him to pay back the money he borrowed, so when you sign a deal, in the end you have no one to blame but yourself.

IE: Every single president who ever signed a contract with FUMUKU, only to turn dictator, having not read the terms of the agreement, just before a guard puts a round through the back of his head. Some could say scam, I say they should have read the fine print.)



Edit: Some also might argue there is no RP in setting up a bank with massive interest rates and unreasonable loan conditions that are hidden within a very long and monotone contract.


Matter of perspective I guess.




I'm glad LL is growing out of it's shell in terms of RP but I'm not sure how it will adapt.

[Apex]

So I guess my final question is fairly simple:

If someone agrees to surrender items in their inventory if they fail to pay back a loan will the staff intervene if they fail to keep up to their end of the deal and remove items as per the agreement? 

If not I see no reason why I should risk my IG money to do this roleplay.

[BlackDog]

So I guess my final question is fairly simple:

If someone agrees to surrender items in their inventory if they fail to pay back a loan will the staff intervene if they fail to keep up to their end of the deal and remove items as per the agreement? 

(If someone gives out a loan without collateral, and the one who took the loan does not pay the money back, then the onus of getting said money back is more or less on them.

Companies, people, NO ONE, should be giving a loan without collateral already handed over.

If Bob wants a loan of 50k, Bob turns over say a car worth 150k before he gets his loan as collateral with the agreement to pay back said money by a set time else with a % of interest, otherwise they forfit the car.

This encourages Bob to follow through on their agreement instead of taking the money and running.

If anything the worry should be that once the collateral is handed over,and the loan repaid, that the one who gave the loan returns said collateral as the agreement has been fufilled within the parameters of said contract.

I do see what your getting at though.

If A signs a contract they will pay B back the money by C time, but A takes the money and runs, how does B recoup the loss.

In the end I don't think staff should be intervening really as they are already busy enough without having to review player made contracts to spot loopholes, scams and what not.

It all comes down to this:

Buyer Beware. If you don't trust them, don't do it, if you do it anyways, and they rip you off. Live and learn)


If not I see no reason why I should risk my IG money to do this roleplay.

[Admiral.]

So I guess my final question is fairly simple:

If someone agrees to surrender items in their inventory if they fail to pay back a loan will the staff intervene if they fail to keep up to their end of the deal and remove items as per the agreement? 

(If someone gives out a loan without collateral, and the one who took the loan does not pay the money back, then the onus of getting said money back is more or less on them.

Companies, people, NO ONE, should be giving a loan without collateral already handed over.

If Bob wants a loan of 50k, Bob turns over say a car worth 150k before he gets his loan as collateral with the agreement to pay back said money by a set time else with a % of interest, otherwise they forfit the car.

This encourages Bob to follow through on their agreement instead of taking the money and running.

If anything the worry should be that once the collateral is handed over,and the loan repaid, that the one who gave the loan returns said collateral as the agreement has been fufilled within the parameters of said contract.

I do see what your getting at though.

If A signs a contract they will pay B back the money by C time, but A takes the money and runs, how does B recoup the loss.

In the end I don't think staff should be intervening really as they are already busy enough without having to review player made contracts to spot loopholes, scams and what not.

It all comes down to this:

Buyer Beware. If you don't trust them, don't do it, if you do it anyways, and they rip you off. Live and learn)


If not I see no reason why I should risk my IG money to do this roleplay.

We would like an answer from staff, as they may or may not enforce it.

[BlackDog]

At the current time the written policy more or less states and that all types, be it IC or OOC are disallowed.

That's the exact wording of the rule

"1.6 - Scamming is not allowed"

Whether a member of staff will enforce said policy as its written is up in the air.

One may enforce it as is, while another may modify it for one situation, and another way fora different situation.

Overall the rule itself needs a rewrite as right now its to far reaching, yet at the same time far to vague

[Nev]

You're overthinking this...

Just require them to give you collateral and then have them agree to something both IC'ly and OOC'ly that provides the amount being loaned, date or repayment and terms and conditions if they fail to pay. You could offer late payment fees or simply have it noted that their collateral may be seized if they failed to make their payment on time.

Don't rely on the administrator to confiscate items, just have them hand them over beforehand. It's not too complicated.

[Project]

Has been clarified by Overlewd here.

Archived.