[Hungames]

Your Name: Hungames

Issued by: Please include the [L²]/[L²:M] tag.  [font=open_sansregular, Arial, sans-serif][L²]SirWulf[/font]

Blacklist ID: 71577

Server: Only one

Why should you be unblacklisted?: I'm going to address the different parts of the blacklist individually

Breaking FearRP

Let's start out talking about the alleged fearRP violation. These are some of the fearRP rules as written in the rules (https://limelightgaming.net/derma/rules.php#): 

2.1 You must follow FearRP – Your character must act afraid of life-threatening situations or of any visibly armed people. You must follow orders of 
visibly armed people as long as they are able to harm your character at that moment. You cannot draw a weapon while you are in their line of sight 
and within effective firing range. The only exception to this is if you are also visibly armed. (Visibly armed = holding a weapon in hand, regardless 
of safety mode). 
2.1b You cannot draw a weapon when someone has you at gunpoint. 
2.1c You cannot run away from someone when they have you at gunpoint. 

2.1: You have to follow the commands of someone who is armed and has you under fearRP. You cannot draw a weapon while you are in their line of sight. Relation to the situation: I had pulled up to a police checkpoint in a kamaz. It had gotten stuck due to the tight build. It rolled a tiny bit past the checkpoint wall to the point where you couldn't see the side of the wall and truck. The cops ordered Dan and I to get out of the car. We followed their orders to the letter. "Get out of the car!" We did exactly this. Dan was put out in the open, still under fearRP. I was placed in the intersection where the cops couldn't see me, fire at me, or command me anymore. I was out of fearRP. I pulled a weapon before I ran around the wall, and fired on the officers to save Dan. When they lost their sight on me, I was no longer under fearRP as stated in 2.1. (see fig. 1)


2.1b: Check 2.1

2.1c: You can't run away from someone when they have you at gunpoint. As their line of sight had been broken after I followed their command, I was no longer under fearRP. They had no guns aimed at me since they couldn't see me.

 leaving vehicle under gunpoint

I left the vehicle under gunpoint as the officers had ordered us to do so. This was following fearRP as they still had line of sight and a gun trained at me at this point.

opening fire due to temporary loss of sight

The loss of sight wasn't temporary. I could have ran away if I was by myself, but because Dan was in the same gang, I had to save him. I turned the corner, with the gun out, and fired. They lost line of sight completely. During the sit, SirWulf had said that after being commanded to get out, I had to walk back to the officers, unarmed, and continue the exact way it was before, but this makes no sense. I was in a gang, not just a normal citizen. I wouldn't present myself to cops on a silver platter. Once their line of sight had been completely broken, I was perfectly able to pull a weapon and go around the corner.

Sit: I am going to talk about some things brought up during the sit.

Use of rule 1.11: Rhys, one of the officers who was killed, PMed me requesting my reason for open firing. I had replied with 1.11 to protect my words from being warped in a PR or something similar. This is similar to the 5th amendment of the US constitution. The right to remain silent. I exercised my right to protect myself. SirWulf claimed this rule is only for harrassment, and told me that there wouldn't have been an admin sit had I given a reason flat out to Rhys. What is the point of the rule if I am not allowed to use it?

Other staff/retired staff opinions:

Venom: While being a retired administrator, I believe that his knowledge of the rules contributes to this UBLR.

Hungames: venom, i need ur opinion on a situation where i got a BL
Hungames: It was mainly for fearRP. I was at a checkpoint in a big kamaz. It had gotten stuck and created a full barrier with another wall that blocked all the cops' view of me. We were ordered to get out of the cart at gunpoint. I complied. Dan was on the other side with guns at gunpoint, but no one could see me, nor were they moving towards me. I moved around the barricade, but before doing so, I pulled my gun, and then started shooting. Was I still under fearRP when I was put out of the car behind a non-see through barrier
venom: I mean I would say if you were concealed behind something and the other person had no view of you that you'd have time to draw your weapon and it shouldn't be FearRP

Soviethooves: Current Administrator.

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He agrees that I was not under fearRP as line of sight had been completely cut off.

Evidence:
I do not have video evidence from the situation, but I think my descriptions will suffice. I have created an accurate representation of what happened using ms paint. 

(fig 1) 

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Witnesses: Rhys (Cop), Dan (Partner), Bot Trump (Homeland Security officer who fired at me, and was subsequently shot)

[Limelight Gaming]

The staff-members have received your unblacklist-request, Hungames.

It will take a while for it to be reviewed.

[SirWulf]

As I explained during our sit. You were placed in that position due to the way the game mechanics work. You were in a tight spot and when you left, you were placed in an area that was not where you would normally be. Therefore, that is actually using a game mechanic to bypass FearRP. While you were exiting the vehicle you had four officers trained on you. FearRP was in effect.

1.12 Purposefully attempting to find loopholes in the rules will likely result in punishment.

You used a game mechanic to get out of FearRP and was therefore punished for it.

[Hungames]

I didn't purposefully attempt to find a loophole in the rules, and no, I didn't exploit a game mechanic. I could have done exactly the same thing IRL. there are 2 doors on the truck. I exited the one that put me in the blind spot. It was the officer's job to have full coverage on the vehicle. They didn't, and my character used that to his advantage. As stated in the rules, once line of sight is broken, fearRP is off. That's pretty clear. They don't state I have to go back over and and myself in as you seem to believe.

If anything, your idea of having to go back to them is finding a loophole. I followed the rules down to the word. Your unwritten "rule" that I've never seen enforced in 350 hours is a hole.

[SirWulf]

We keep going over the same thing over and over again.

As I explained during our sit, just because a direct order leads to a temporary loss of sight does not open up the door to whip out a gun and shoot everyone. As the vehicle was parked in the city tunnel with props around it, you were deposited in a location that the game could find as safe, which just happened to have been a prop serving as the checkpoint.

You took advantage of this.

If this was a real life scenario you would not have been able to have done that as you would have had to exit a door that you could exit, which would have been where the officers could see you.

And that is why I have been saying all of this.

Now, unless there is any evidence as to why I should unblacklist you please post it in the next 24 hours for the final conclusion.

Thanks.

[Dan]

We keep going over the same thing over and over again.  

As I explained during our sit, just because a direct order leads to a temporary loss of sight does not open up the door to whip out a gun and shoot everyone.  As the vehicle was parked in the city tunnel with props around it, you were deposited in a location that the game could find as safe, which just happened to have been a prop serving as the checkpoint.

You took advantage of this.

If this was a real life scenario you would not have been able to have done that as you would have had to exit a door that you could exit, which would have been where the officers could see you.

And that is why I have been saying all of this.

Now, unless there is any evidence as to why I should unblacklist you please post it in the next 24 hours for the final conclusion.

Thanks.

I am involved

I don't think you're understanding something, Wulf. The front of the truck was stuck, so that the driver's door was behind the structure. If this were real life, the door would still be fully functional. Look at the picture for clarification:



The door is behind the structure, and is fully functional. No game mechanics were exploited. If this were real life, the driver's door would have been opened, and the driver would have stepped out behind the cover of the checkpoint. 

Once again, no game mechanics were exploited.

[SirWulf]

I will do some further research. I'll get back with you guys.

[Dan]

Thank you Wulf. Take your time.

And sorry if my message sounded a little over-aggressive, I was just trying to get my point past.

[Enzyme]

Faustie and I are reviewing this case as Wulf has presented evidence in this thread that confirms what he claims, but it is unfortunately evidence that we cannot disclose as it's a part of our new staff-powers which are not available for the public to know.

So to repeat, because we cannot show you the evidence Faustie and myself have both reviewed and discussed this case and this is my take on it:

-

Everyone in the vehicle were put under fearRP after being surrounded, and everyone were ordered to exit the truck with their hands over their head yada yada. Due to vehicle exits being buggy (especially in tight situations like this one), one player (Hunggames) was put on a different side of the vehicle than the others who were in the truck. This is due to issues in the exiting-mechanic and an OOC problem. At the time as Hunggames exited the vehicle, another player was stuck and the situation was put in a "time-out" to get this player freed.

Hungames was under fearRP when ordered to exit the vehicle and got out of line of sight because that the vehicle exit can be glitchy. Technically speaking Hunggames would still be under fearRP granted the exit wouldn't have fucked up, so Hunggames should have returned back to the exit position with the others as he would have been under fearRP. Especially as the cops were dealing with an OOC issue trying to get the stuck player free.

Basically, the issue at hand is that Hunggames exploited the OOC time-out as well as the vehicle exit that messed up when he'd technically be with everyone else and still under fearRP (as the truck was more or less surrounded). He was under fearRP while in the vehicle and would continue being under fearRP as he exited the vehicle.

Hunggames should have accepted that he was under fearRP and was put in the position he was put in due to an issue with the exit-mechanic, and that he shouldn't have exploited this moment, especially as people were dealing with the situation in OOc as a player was stuck. 


Wulf handled this case properly by reviewing the situation for 30 minutes before coming to what I believe is a correct conclusion. He showed leniency by reviewing Hunggames record and issued a very short weapon-blacklist instead of a longer blacklist or a ban. Wulf has also reconstructed the scene several times with a lot of evidence to back his claims up.

[Faustie]

Hi Hungames,

I pretty much entirely agree with Enzyme's analysis. I've looked through all the evidence and I have to say, he's got it spot on. FearRP did indeed apply, and the only reason the situation changed was because of the vehicle exit bug. Were it just that then I might have sided with you on this and let it slide, but you unfortunately abused the OOC time-out also. I appreciate that the exit bug may have been confusing, but you should have known better as not abusing exploits or bugs is a rule here, and you certainly should have known better than to take advantage of an OOC time-out.

However, this situation was partly caused by the exit bug. Given your prior clean record, I agree with SirWulf's position that your blacklist be a very short one, so hopefully this won't impact your experience on the servers at all.

I'd also like to say that I'm really impressed by SirWulf's conduct on this case. He's a busy man, yet spent a lot of time reconstructing and analyzing the situation to produce the most fair result. It's exemplary work, and were it not for his actions in reviewing it you would may even have ended up with a longer blacklist.

I do appreciate how frustrating and confusing the exit bug can be though. I'm going to forward this case to our vehicle development group and have raised the priority of fixing the remaining vehicle exit bugs. Hopefully this will reduce incidents like this in the future.

If you have any concerns with how this particular case was reviewed, please feel free to send your concerns to Brynn, Enzyme, or myself. Many thanks.

[Dan]

Due to vehicle exits being buggy (especially in tight situations like this one), one player (Hunggames) was put on a different side of the vehicle than the others who were in the truck. This is due to issues in the exiting-mechanic and an OOC problem. 
That is how doors work, there is one on each side of the vehicle. Hungames got out of the driver's door, and I, being the only other passenger in the truck, got out of the passenger door. Both of us were ejected out of the vehicle on the correct side. That has nothing to do with vehicle exits being buggy.

At the time as Hunggames exited the vehicle, another player was stuck and the situation was put in a "time-out" to get this player freed.
I don't remember this ever happening.

Hungames was under fearRP when ordered to exit the vehicle and got out of line of sight because that the vehicle exit can be glitchy.
He got out of line of sight because the door was behind the line of sight, that had nothing to do with the vehicle exits being glitchy.

Technically speaking Hunggames would still be under fearRP granted the exit wouldn't have fucked up, so Hunggames should have returned back to the exit position with the others as he would have been under fearRP.
I don't know where else you are thinking he should be ejected. And why would he return to the exit position with the passenger? The passenger left the vehicle through the passenger door, and the driver left the vehicle through the driver door. They are on opposite sides of the vehicle, so I do not know why you think they would exit at the same position.

Especially as the cops were dealing with an OOC issue trying to get the stuck player free.
Again, pretty sure this didn't happen.

Basically, the issue at hand is that Hunggames exploited the OOC time-out
what

as well as the vehicle exit that messed up when he'd technically be with everyone else and still under fearRP
Vehicle exit didn't mess up. He would not be with the passenger, as he exited a separate door than the passenger. And there were only 2 people in the car, Hungames and I. 

(as the truck was more or less surrounded).
There were 2 cops at the front of the truck. Not surrounded.

He was under fearRP while in the vehicle and would continue being under fearRP as he exited the vehicle.
2.1 - You must follow FearRP - Your character must act afraid of life-threatening situations or of any visibly armed people.

Hunggames should have accepted that he was under fearRP and was put in the position he was put in due to an issue with the exit-mechanic, and that he shouldn't have exploited this moment, especially as people were dealing with the situation in OOc as a player was stuck. 
The way the rules are written, he did not break fearRP. The position he was put by the game mechanics was correct. And I'm pretty sure no one was stuck.

Wulf handled this case properly by reviewing the situation for 30 minutes before coming to what I believe is a correct conclusion. He showed leniency by reviewing Hunggames record and issued a very short weapon-blacklist instead of a longer blacklist or a ban. Wulf has also reconstructed the scene several times with a lot of evidence to back his claims up.
Wulf4SA

And also, what is the "OOC timeout"?

-edit-
Ok, I remember what you're talking about when you say the "stuck player". IIRC, the cops were telling us to back out, but our truck was stuck. There was no player stuck.

[SirWulf]

This is being denied.

I appreciate your patience in this review as it is one of those cases that has a thin line.

To clarify Dan, Officer Rhys pulled out a chair to help move the vehicle off of the checkpoint after you both told them that you couldn't move because you were stuck. This was done in OOC and when he pulled out his phys gun to unstick you it is a response to that OOC statement. As soon as that chair spawned and Rhys was busy with the prop, Hungames popped out of the vehicle, ended up further away from the vehicle door than usual due to the ingame mechanic trying to avoid getting him stuck in a prop and found himself out of sight. He then immediately ran to flank both officers and pulled out a weapon.

And this is the reason for the Blacklist.

I appreciate what you guys do. With your hours and clean records it proves that you guys work hard to play well. Unfortunately this was a case where things got a bit out of hand. And as stated, I drastically reduced my usual punishment because of your hours and record.

Thanks.