[Memeimrich]

Your Name: Memeimrich

Issued by: Please include the [L²]/[L²:M] tag.
L²:M Toxic
Blacklist ID:
70327 & 70328
Server:
RP
Why should you be unblacklisted?:
The stated reasons for our blacklists are completely invalid. Toxic came up and instantly sided with the police force with zero context as to the reasoning behind our actions. For starters, our blacklist reason was: "Invalid use of weapons, attempting to take SWAT at gunpoint while roleplaying themselves as police". As for weapons: we were officers, as recognized by the president at that moment, and were using our weapons to defend our lives against two criminals attempting to take them. For taking SWAT at gunpoint while roleplaying as police: as Soviet said, "I'd just like to add, you can arrest government officials IC Especially if . . . [you] have a VERY good reason[.]" So clearly, as stated by an administrator, you're allowed to arrest police. We were unfortunately forced to make the arrest at gunpoint due to the nature of their crimes and the fact that they were armed.

I'd also like to add that with monk's thread, Toxic essentially made up the entirety of his closing notes; which I'd like to argue now.

Monk, I'm not reading that. You've convoluted it with numerous minor, pointless details to the point where it's essentially unreadable.

You mean the context?

The fact of the matter is that you and meme, while roleplaying as "FBI" and "Deputy",  instead of communicating with what would be considered other members  of government, drew them into a shootout which ultimately seems to be what your end goal was.

I assume you came to this conclusion by scanning his brainwaves and determining what was going on in his head? Our end goal was to carry out the arrest in a timely manner so monk could leave when he had to and I would monitor the remainder of their sentence before their release.

 You've confessed in your own UBR to violating NLR and at the same time violating rule 1.12 by changing your job and IC name to say "NLR doesn't apply now." 

Except with this you're implying that he decided to go revenge-kill/arrest them and it wasn't me who contacted him ICly and asked for his help.


"Realizing that this was obviously a corrupt police force, following his release and my character change to a more suitable character so as not to break NLR"

All you did here was wrongly apply his quote to a confession. His own words: "[I] probably should have explained that better." As he explained to me: "[I] like to change my character after death since to me it makes more sense than rping a dead guy. [P]lus it makes for entertaining times when we tell the story of how the first [S]keeter [J]ones was blasted over the side of his cruiser by a man with a shotgun." In other words, you took his unproperly explained quote and applied it to a situation in which it didn't.



You died, changed your job to Citizen, then to FBI once the meeting to punish the guy who killed you was set up.

"[W]hat is he on about. [I] changed my job to citizen while you were still in jail and [I] was debating whether to be Skeeter Jones II or Cleatus Jones and changed my job to FBI before [I] even went up to the [N]exus."

 "Looking at your messages in logs saying how you had to go soon, it seems that you were trying to squeeze in a revenge kill on the person that shot you." You weren't trying to properly roleplay as an FBI agent attempting to take down corrupt police officers.

Except he actually had to go at around exactly 7:00pm EST which is when the situation concluded, and we didn't fire on them until they were a second for opening fire on us. Also, after the president accidentally ate a boot, they tried to claim we killed him (Stomm also stated that he saw us kill the president in his post on monk's thread, despite the president saying in LOOC that he pressed his boot bind and the other SWAT member acknowledging it) which I'm fairly certain is powergaming to some degree.

Denied.
Without any opportunity for an actual argument over the validity of our blacklist :^)

Long post short, the reasons for our blacklist were completely invalid and biased against us and Toxic closed monk's UBR without even offering the possibility of a debate over his reasons.

Your thread was your opportunity to contest your blacklist[.]

Good thing you closed it before we could :^).

I would appreciate an actual discussion over the validity of our blacklist instead of a post by Toxic full of assumptions with no possibility to actually contest it. Also, if possible, I would like to ask that an unbiased mediator review this request; seeing as Toxic is Hell-bent on enforcing his ruling despite him having no prior information about the situation and outright refusing to even read our argument.

Evidence:

This was a situation where context was needed to understand the reasoning behind our actions. Unfortunately the context has been declared "convoluted" by Toxic.

[Limelight Gaming]

The staff-members have received your unblacklist-request, Memeimrich.

It will take a while for it to be reviewed.

[SirWulf]

Ok, evidence is not a finalized report from a closed request. Is there any other evidence that you can provide?

[monk]

I'm unaware of where Memeimrich is so I'll respond for the time being until he returns. We weren't using that on its own as evidence, just bringing it to attention to show how far Toxic is going to stop us from appealing this.

This is mostly a he-said she-said (I don't mean disrespect with that) scenario, with Toxic on one side and us plus Soviet saying what we did was allowed with RP reason.

Not trying to entirely connect these two points together, but:

12.8 Do not kill or injure any other government member. 

12.8a Exception: If an officer or SWAT officer is attempting to take your life or that of innocent people, you may use force to stop them.

So seeing as we, I believe, Stomm said one of us got a pass at the last second (EDIT: It has been clarified he was swapped to a visitors pass, I assume because the president didn't know we already had worker's passes), were recognized as law enforcement by the president who was standing next to us, we did exactly as the rules stated.

To sum it up in case I was being unnecessarily complicated: Neither side has evidence. Toxic has what little of the situation he witnessed and knows about, whereas we have Soviet (sorry for involving you) saying what we did was valid with RP reason and the rules saying what we did was allowed.

EDIT: New information.

[SirWulf]

Ok, however what confuses me here is why this has been reopened? Wasn't this concluded?

If this is a new case, all previous evidence from an old case does not apply. If this is a continuation from an old case, it is invalid as it is against the rules of the courthouse.

And, if this is admin abuse, you are on the wrong section, which seems to be where you are going as you state quite often how wrong the previous verdict is.

[monk]

It technically concluded, however in a sense that our argument went completely ignored by the person(s) reviewing it and closed with the reason being that we should have used the thread to contest it.

It's not a new case. Well, you see we here at Monk & Memeimrich Gaming LTD. like to read rules very carefully. And as such have concluded:

Spoiler

It is not against courthouse rules.

Now if this were an unban request, then yeah it would be against the rules. And I promise this isn't trying to be an admin abuse thread, we're just trying to argue that with limited context to the situation and the rules and administrator's judgement on our side that Toxic's ruling was unjust. Also, isn't saying that the judgement is wrong kinda the point of an unban/blacklist request?

[Soviethooves]

Just for clarification, I did not validate your actions. I pointed out to both parties that an officer can arrest another, not that what you did was within our rules.

[BlackDog]

It technically concluded, however in a sense that our argument went completely ignored by the person(s) reviewing it and closed with the reason being that we should have used the thread to contest it.

(Your argument does not seem to have been ignored, it was reviewed, and your context and actions we're deemed insufficent to grant you any kind of justification for the actions you took in the way you took them. IE:

The FBI in no way informing the local PD of an ongoing investigation, only informing the citys highest ranking politician and NOT the chief of police or the current highest ranking PD member.

Then proceeding to stage what was seen as a raid on the nexus to hold a police officer up at gunpoint, and get into a shootout with SWAT.

Your own lack of action and desire to rush the situation lead to you making the mistakes you did.

In the future you should:
A. Keep the police routinely informed of your operational areas, and units who are involved
B. When investigating a Police officer as the FBI, inform their DIRECT superior of what is going on.
C. Do NOT take part in the investigateion the person who had killed you not 30 minutes prior in an attempt to get him IC punished for the action, this is a violation of the NLR
D. When conducting a warrant service on a police officer, DO NOT RUN AT THEM WITH GUNS OUT WHILE WEARING MASKS! Just walk up to him in a suit with another officer and serve the warrant.
E.When you get into a situation where miscommunication has lead to you at odds with the PD and they say put your weapons away? Do it, their not going to put you against a wall and shoot you. Their going to cuff you, check your ID, and confirm who you are.)
F. Do not rush things and give the RP the time it needs to grow.

It's not a new case. Well, you see we here at Monk & Memeimrich Gaming LTD. like to read rules very carefully. And as such have concluded:

It is not against courthouse rules.

(I talked to enzyme in regards to this, you both posted 1 appeal, appealing both of your punishments at once, you both helped write it, and thus the appeal counted as both of your appeal, it was denied. Posting a second appeal under a second name does not legitimise it, ontop of how this UBLR is not a simple repost of your prior, but more argueing how he handled your prior UBLR)

Now if this were an unban request, then yeah it would be against the rules. And I promise this isn't trying to be an admin abuse thread, we're just trying to argue that with limited context to the situation and the rules and administrator's judgement on our side that Toxic's ruling was unjust.

(It still applys, it appears to be an oversight that the rules in the UBR zone we're not ported over to the UBLR zone, an oversight that will be corrected now that its been pointed out, in this case it does not really apply to this UBLR as you have already posted one, and it was denied)

Also, isn't saying that the judgement is wrong kinda the point of an unban/blacklist request?

(Not at all, many people meerly want to explain their actions and request a reduction)

[monk]

You're pointing out that an officer can arrest an officer but that doesn't apply to us despite us being officers arresting officers. Okay. Besides invalid use of weapons, our blacklist reason was because we attempted to arrest two SWAT Officers. Also I never claimed you said we didn't break the rules, just that you said what we did was allowed. I used the rules for killing government officials to prove we didn't break the rules.

[BlackDog]

You're pointing out that an officer can arrest an officer but that doesn't apply to us despite us being officers arresting officers.

(What?)

Okay. Besides invalid use of weapons, our blacklist reason was because we attempted to arrest two SWAT Officers.

(Pretty sure your BL reason was because your actions lead to a shootout with police, when you yourself are RPing as police, when you had every oppertunity to not do this)

Also I never claimed you said we didn't break the rules, just that you said what we did was allowed.

(He does not say what you did was allowed, as what you did, and again this is the reason you appear to have been blacklisted, see above)


I used the rules for killing government officials to prove we didn't break the rules.

(I have no idea what you mean by this?)

Your appeal was reviewed the first time and the member of staff who was there deemed it insufficiant to justify a removal of the punishment.

Youve provided no evidence to convince others that his judgement is in anyway wrong in this situation, only opinion.

Do you have any final thoughts before I forward this for conclusion?

[monk]

Sorry for double post, BlackDog responded while I was typing.

(Your argument does not seem to have been ignored,

Seeing as Toxic outright stated that we wasn't going to read it and then request it be closed, I'm fairly certain the argument was ignored.

it was reviewed, and your context and actions we're deemed insufficent to grant you any kind of justification for the actions you took in the way you took them. IE: 

The FBI in no way informing the local PD of an ongoing investigation, only informing the citys highest ranking politician and NOT the chief of police or the current highest ranking PD member.

I forgot this was a Serious RP server where the president has no power whatsoever. We didn't inform the highest ranking PD member because the highest ranking PD member was one of the people we were going to investigate before he switched off. Also I'm fairly certain Toxic was not the Sergeant at the time we arranged the arrest with the president. But I could be wrong.

Then proceeding to stage what was seen as a raid on the nexus to hold a police officer up at gunpoint, and get into a shootout with SWAT.

It's not a raid if we were invited into the the Nexus, Memeimrich even had his worker's pass replaced with a visitor's pass before the shootout.

Your own lack of action and desire to rush the situation lead to you making the mistakes you did.

In the future you should:
A. Keep the police routinely informed of your operational areas, and units who are involved
B. When investigating a Police officer as the FBI, inform their DIRECT superior of what is going on.

Yeah, let me inform the people we're investigating that we're investigating them. I'll be sure to tell them my every move next time.

C. Do NOT take part in the investigateion the person who had killed you not 30 minutes prior in an attempt to get him IC punished for the action, this is a violation of the NLR

Nowhere in the NLR rules does it say anything about not being able to rejoin a RP scenario after death, just that you need to wait out the duration of the NLR timer, to not go back during it, and to forget the details of your previous life.

D. When conducting a warrant service on a police officer, DO NOT RUN AT THEM WITH GUNS OUT WHILE WEARING MASKS! Just walk up to him in a suit with another officer and serve the warrant.

It's not like we sprinted towards them aiming guns at them, and they knew that there'd be a man in a gas mask. Plus Memeimrich had his weapon lowered up until the point of their arrest and I didn't arrive on scene until they had begun raising their weapons. Sorry I don't have disposable income to go towards membership, I wasn't aware some RP could only be done by donators.

E.When you get into a situation where miscommunication has lead to you at odds with the PD and they say put your weapons away? Do it, their not going to put you against a wall and shoot you. Their going to cuff you, check your ID, and confirm who you are.)

Weird, in our previous encounter with them when I turned around and went to lower my weapon I was shot and Memeimrich did what they said and was given a frivolous charge.

F. Do not rush things and give the RP the time it needs to grow.

We didn't rush anything, my PMs to the president were more about me being hidden away in one of the offices at the time and thought they were dragging it out longer than it needed to be. Plus I didn't leave until probably a minute or two after Memeimrich was killed.

(I talked to enzyme in regards to this, you both posted 1 appeal, appealing both of your punishments at once, you both helped write it, and thus the appeal counted as both of your appeal, it was denied. Posting a second appeal under a second name does not legitimise it, ontop of how this UBLR is not a simple repost of your prior, but more argueing how he handled your prior UBLR)

Well, I wrote the first and he wrote this one and disappeared, leaving me to respond. It wasn't under a "second name", you've talked to Memeimrich on Steam before and we're clearly two different people. It was arguing that it was never argued to begin with.

(It still applys, it appears to be an oversight that the rules in the UBR zone we're not ported over to the UBLR zone, an oversight that will be corrected now that its been pointed out, in this case it does not really apply to this UBLR as you have already posted one, and it was denied)

It was not written anywhere, if it was we wouldn't have posted a second thread. I'm sorry, I mean no disrespect but I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

(Not at all, many people meerly want to explain their actions and request a reduction)
Did I not try to explain our actions and the context behind them?

And then you post another reply while I'm typing.

(What?)

He said government officials were allowed to arrest government officials, which didn't apparently didn't apply to us despite being government officials.

(Pretty sure your BL reason was because your actions lead to a shootout with police, when you yourself are RPing as police, when you had every oppertunity to not do this)

Our blacklist was for invalid use of weapons and taking SWAT at gunpoint. And no we didn't have every opportunity to do this because they were in the process of counting down before they opened fire and we were not going to be taken at gunpoint by a known cop killer.

(He does not say what you did was allowed, as what you did, and again this is the reason you appear to have been blacklisted, see above)

He literally said government officials are allowed to arrest government officials, which is what we did.

(I have no idea what you mean by this?)

Rules for government officials killing government officials states government officials are allowed to kill government officials if they are attempting to take your life, which they were. 

Your appeal was reviewed the first time and the member of staff who was there deemed it insufficiant to justify a removal of the punishment.

With no disrespect intended, the member of staff who was there had no context of the situation and refused to hear it.

Youve provided no evidence to convince others that his judgement is in anyway wrong in this situation, only opinion.

I've provided rules stating that our firefight was justified (12.8a) and Soviet's now retracted statement stating government officials are allowed to arrest government officials.

Do you have any final thoughts before I forward this for conclusion?

Unless someone has something else to add or discuss then that is all from me. (Us, I suppose, even though Memeimrich isn't responding to this thread.)

[Soviethooves]

Never retracted the statement. I stated that arrests between officers is allowed if properly done.

Just because I clarified a part of this argument doesn't mean I sanction what you did was within our rules.

[monk]

I never said you sanctioned what we did, just that based off your statement us arresting the officers (a part of our blacklist) is allowed on this server.

[BlackDog]

Yes, police detaining and RPing an arrest of other police officers is allowed, but what you fail to understand is the reason why you got blacklisted is not that you we're doing this, but how you went about doing it, you informed ONE person you we're going to serve a warrant on a police officer (The president, who does not appear to have informed anyone else before they died by boot not long after), did nothing to inform the local PD Chief of the investigation at hand so they would help you (No, just because the suspect is an officer, does not mean you ignore the entire police force and declare them all rouge officers and and attempt to shoot them if they don't listen to you)


12.8a Exception: If an officer or SWAT officer is attempting to take your life or that of innocent people, you may use force to stop them.


Key word, take your life, IE actively attempting to kill you, meaning currently shooting or stabing you in the chest.

Them pointing a weapon at you when you barge in with masks on and telling you to drop your weapon, is not actively attemptingto take your life, you refused to cooperate and thus they gave you an ultimatum, one you should have abided by had you actualy been RPing the FBI.

If you want to RP the FBI, setup an office, RP your investigations, and work WITH the local police force, otherwise do not RP them at all as 95% of people who try to RP the FBI, forget the Investigation part of Federal Bureau of Investigation and assume they can just start acting like a SWAT team.

Payday 2, this is not

To sum up, this entire discussion is once again going in circles and everything that you need to know has been said, if you have further questions do ask, but its almost midnight and i am not going to spend another 30 minutes writeing out an explination on how youve misread and misinterpreted what toxic said in his PM to you, maybe later but not now.

I will leave this open for 8 more hours for final thoughts before it is concluded

[monk]

Yes, police detaining and RPing an arrest of other police officers is allowed, but what you fail to understand is the reason why you got blacklisted is not that you we're doing this, but how you went about doing it, you informed ONE person you we're going to serve a warrant on a police officer (The president, who does not appear to have informed anyone else before they died by boot not long after), did nothing to inform the local PD Chief of the investigation at hand so they would help you

Again, the "chief" (Sergeant in actuality) was one of our suspects so we weren't going to coordinate his own arrest with him. That being said, I don't know when Toxic became Police Sergeant (I even thought he was a paramedic to begin with), but, and you don't have to believe me, I'm sure we would've at the bare minimum informed him had we known it was him and not the Sergeant whose actions led to the previous encounter with them. Also, pretty much every time we do this RP I ask the president to inform his officers (usually so he could put it in law or something and because he gave us the pass to begin with) who we are and where we're working, but they usually don't. Unfortunately I don't have a police scanner so I can't read their radio to see if he's told them.

(No, just because the suspect is an officer, does not mean you ignore the entire police force and declare them all rouge officers and and attempt to shoot them if they don't listen to you)

The suspect wasn't just "an officer" it was the majority of the police force. Also, you keep implying that we just rolled up shooting everyone and weren't in a secluded area being taken at gunpoint by a known murderer (to us).

12.8a Exception: If an officer or SWAT officer is attempting to take your life or that of innocent people, you may use force to stop them.


Key word, take your life, IE actively attempting to kill you, meaning currently shooting or stabing you in the chest.

Okay, next time when I'm unarmored and being held at point-blank range with a shotgun I'll keep it in mind I need to let them blast me first. My character was in fear for his life and had he not acted he would have died immediately instead of moments later.

Them pointing a weapon at you when you barge in with masks on and telling you to drop your weapon, is not actively attemptingto take your life, you refused to cooperate and thus they gave you an ultimatum, one you should have abided by had you actualy been RPing the FBI.

We didn't barge in with masks, they saw one person with a mask (and a gun, albeit lowered) after the president told them that there would be one. I wasn't even at their location until they had begun to become aggressive. And they didn't just say drop our weapons and we interpreted it as them trying to kill us, we interpreted them telling us they were going to kill us as them trying to. I mean if you can provide any proof whatsoever that FBI will submit to armed criminals and be taken at gunpoint then I will gladly stop here and accept the blacklist. Also, so like, when does letting yourself be taken at gunpoint apply? Can I do the same thing to police officers and they have to not turn around and immediately try to kill me or else I can post a ban request?

If you want to RP the FBI, setup an office, RP your investigations, and work WITH the local police force, otherwise do not RP them at all as 95% of people who try to RP the FBI, forget the Investigation part of Federal Bureau of Investigation and assume they can just start acting like a SWAT team.

Ah yes, I should've returned the crime scene and picked up the shell that held the buckshot that killed a man and put it in my special FBI-machine to determine everything from how it was used to why it was used to the manufacturer. My office building could have easily been hours away from that city, seeing as we're using scenarios that would fit in a serious RP server instead of a semi-serious. And two unarmored people armed with a shotgun and a handgun does not constitute a SWAT team.

Payday 2, this is not

Yes, this is Limelight Gaming, a semi-serious RP server where the RP becomes serious when you enter the courthouse. 

To sum up, this entire discussion is once again going in circles and everything that you need to know has been said, if you have further questions do ask,

Yeah, seriously. I had some other thing I wanted to say or mention or ask but I've forgotten it over the hours. If I remember I'll edit this to say it or put it in a new post if someone replied.

but its almost midnight and i am not going to spend another 30 minutes writeing out an explination on how youve misread and misinterpreted what toxic said in his PM to you, maybe later but not now.

I didn't misread or misinterpret anything Toxic has said, anytime I argued against something he's done I provided the exact words he used. Moreover I'm pretty sure the only thing from our PMs I used was him saying we should have used our thread to argue our blacklist instead of filling it with pointless detail; otherwise known as 'context.'

I will leave this open for 8 more hours for final thoughts before it is concluded

I really doubt there is much else to say, I'd like to conclude that many times we've been cited for rules that literally don't exist. Like rule 3.4 which states that at no time are you to RP with the people you were RPing with if you've died. To be honest I don't know why admins aren't hitting people harder with that, I see people die and continue RPing with their clan or as police officers all the time :).