[Safira]

I heard a while back that a group of terrorists didn't ever send emails to eachother - they had an email account they all knew the details of and just saved messages as drafts.

[give me the gamemode]

they use highly trained pigeons to carry messages

[Nev]

They also communicate through secure networks using playstations

Also I'm not saying it prevents many terror attacks but it can thwart many other crimes and it certainly has. From child predators to online drug dealers.

[Kung Fury]

Also I'm not saying it prevents many terror attacks but it can thwart many other crimes and it certainly has.

Do you have a source on that?

Also, as horrible as people like child predators are, I think using methods that violate civil rights to catch them is wrong. They have rights just like everyone else who lives in a free society. If the government gets to arbitrarily decide who gets rights and who doesn't, then they're not rights at all. And that's not good for any of us.

Inb4 "Kung Fury supports child molesters!!!!#11!#1!!!!one!!!"

[Kung Fury]

I know it's been a while since anyone posted to this thread, but I found something I would like to share.  This is an excerpt from a reddit user who claims to have lived in one of the Arab Spring countries during the time. He posted anonymously, and his account has since been deleted. We will never know who this person is, but the experiences he talks of are no doubt a real threat.

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Here is the original link

   I live in a country generally assumed to be a dictatorship. One of the Arab spring countries. I have lived through curfews and have seen the outcomes of the sort of surveillance now being revealed in the US. People here talking about curfews aren't realizing what that actually FEELS like. It isn't about having to go inside, and the practicality of that. It's about creating the feeling that everyone, everything is watching. A few points:

   1) the purpose of this surveillance from the governments point of view is to control enemies of the state. Not terrorists. People who are coalescing around ideas that would destabilize the status quo. These could be religious ideas. These could be groups like anon who are too good with tech for the governments liking. It makes it very easy to know who these people are. It also makes it very simple to control these people.

   Lets say you are a college student and you get in with some people who want to stop farming practices that hurt animals. So you make a plan and go to protest these practices. You get there, and wow, the protest is huge. You never expected this, you were just goofing off. Well now everyone who was there is suspect. Even though you technically had the right to protest, you're now considered a dangerous person.

   With this tech in place, the government doesn't have to put you in jail. They can do something more sinister. They can just email you a sexy picture you took with a girlfriend. Or they can email you a note saying that they can prove your dad is cheating on his taxes. Or they can threaten to get your dad fired. All you have to do, the email says, is help them catch your friends in the group. You have to report back every week, or you dad might lose his job. So you do. You turn in your friends and even though they try to keep meetings off grid, you're reporting on them to protect your dad.

   2) Let's say number one goes on. The country is a weird place now. Really weird. Pretty soon, a movement springs up like occupy, except its bigger this time. People are really serious, and they are saying they want a government without this power. I guess people are realizing that it is a serious deal. You see on the news that tear gas was fired. Your friend calls you, frantic. They're shooting people. Oh my god. you never signed up for this. You say, fuck it. My dad might lose his job but I won't be responsible for anyone dying. That's going too far. You refuse to report anymore. You just stop going to meetings. You stay at home, and try not to watch the news. Three days later, police come to your door and arrest you. They confiscate your computer and phones, and they beat you up a bit. No one can help you so they all just sit quietly. They know if they say anything they're next. This happened in the country I live in. It is not a joke.

   3) Its hard to say how long you were in there. What you saw was horrible. Most of the time, you only heard screams. People begging to be killed. Noises you've never heard before. You, you were lucky. You got kicked every day when they threw your moldy food at you, but no one shocked you. No one used sexual violence on you, at least that you remember. There were some times they gave you pills, and you can't say for sure what happened then. To be honest, sometimes the pills were the best part of your day, because at least then you didn't feel anything. You have scars on you from the way you were treated. You learn in prison that torture is now common. But everyone who uploads videos or pictures of this torture is labeled a leaker. Its considered a threat to national security. Pretty soon, a cut you got on your leg is looking really bad. You think it's infected. There were no doctors in prison, and it was so overcrowded, who knows what got in the cut. You go to the doctor, but he refuses to see you. He knows if he does the government can see the records that he treated you. Even you calling his office prompts a visit from the local police.

   You decide to go home and see your parents. Maybe they can help. This leg is getting really bad. You get to their house. They aren't home. You can't reach them no matter how hard you try. A neighbor pulls you aside, and he quickly tells you they were arrested three weeks ago and haven't been seen since. You vaguely remember mentioning to them on the phone you were going to that protest. Even your little brother isn't there.

   4) Is this even really happening? You look at the news. Sports scores. Celebrity news. It's like nothing is wrong. What the hell is going on? A stranger smirks at you reading the paper. You lose it. You shout at him "fuck you dude what are you laughing at can't you see I've got a fucking wound on my leg?"

   "Sorry," he says. "I just didn't know anyone read the news anymore." There haven't been any real journalists for months. They're all in jail.

   Everyone walking around is scared. They can't talk to anyone else because they don't know who is reporting for the government. Hell, at one time YOU were reporting for the government. Maybe they just want their kid to get through school. Maybe they want to keep their job. Maybe they're sick and want to be able to visit the doctor. It's always a simple reason. Good people always do bad things for simple reasons.

   You want to protest. You want your family back. You need help for your leg. This is way beyond anything you ever wanted. It started because you just wanted to see fair treatment in farms. Now you're basically considered a terrorist, and everyone around you might be reporting on you. You definitely can't use a phone or email. You can't get a job. You can't even trust people face to face anymore. On every corner, there are people with guns. They are as scared as you are. They just don't want to lose their jobs. They don't want to be labeled as traitors.

   This all happened in the country where I live.

   You want to know why revolutions happen? Because little by little by little things get worse and worse. But this thing that is happening now is big. This is the key ingredient. This allows them to know everything they need to know to accomplish the above. The fact that they are doing it is proof that they are the sort of people who might use it in the way I described. In the country I live in, they also claimed it was for the safety of the people. Same in Soviet Russia. Same in East Germany. In fact, that is always the excuse that is used to surveil everyone. But it has never ONCE proven to be the reality.

   Maybe Obama won't do it. Maybe the next guy won't, or the one after him. Maybe this story isn't about you. Maybe it happens 10 or 20 years from now, when a big war is happening, or after another big attack. Maybe it's about your daughter or your son. We just don't know yet. But what we do know is that right now, in this moment we have a choice. Are we okay with this, or not? Do we want this power to exist, or not?

   You know for me, the reason I'm upset is that I grew up in school saying the pledge of allegiance. I was taught that the United States meant "liberty and justice for all." You get older, you learn that in this country we define that phrase based on the constitution. That's what tells us what liberty is and what justice is. Well, the government just violated that ideal. So if they aren't standing for liberty and justice anymore, what are they standing for? Safety?

   Ask yourself a question. In the story I told above, does anyone sound safe?

   I didn't make anything up. These things happened to people I know. We used to think it couldn't happen in America. But guess what? It's starting to happen.

   I actually get really upset when people say "I don't have anything to hide. Let them read everything." People saying that have no idea what they are bringing down on their own heads. They are naive, and we need to listen to people in other countries who are clearly telling us that this is a horrible horrible sign and it is time to stand up and say no.

[Lord Octagon]

"You have no rights. Only temporary privileges."

[Soviethooves]

This is how I see it.

Either we get rid of snooping around on all or most citizens (including Drug Dealers, Hitmen, Child Predators, etc.) and lose a valuable asset to assist in stopping crimes before they begin.

Or we keep doing what we are doing, and not notice the surveillance until Kung Fury makes a thread about it and we start questioning each other, when in reality we really have nothing to fear except for some government worker to see our weird porn history or in some cases, suspicious activity. This could lead to a valid warrant and search of your person more in depth.



But you know....since I'm in this thread...*puts tinfoil hat on*

EDIT: In short, life sucks, suck it up. If legal action is placed on you because of what you think is a stupid reason, it's your responsibility to speak against it. Their will always be corruption and backwards ways for government to attempt to keep the people safe. It's not like their is a "Big Brother" out to get you. If you do something weird, it's gonna be seen. So, again....suck...it...up.

[Kung Fury]

Either we get rid of snooping around on all or most citizens (including Drug Dealers, Hitmen, Child Predators, etc.) and lose a valuable asset to assist in stopping crimes before they begin.

You got any evidence on mass surveillance stopping people like drug dealers, hitmen, and child predators? Because what I've seen is that mass surveillance is largely ineffective because it has stopped

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no terrorist attacks and that

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it is statistically improbable that it will root out any terrorists or other criminal types. Also let's not forget that even drug dealers, hitmen, and child predators have the same rights as any other American citizen, including the 4th amendment right protecting against unlawful search and seizure without a warrant based on probable cause. You may not like it, but that's the way a proper justice system works. If you would prefer to live in a country that doesn't offer these kinds of protections for citizens, there are plenty. Some of my suggestions include various African and Middle Eastern countries. And if you still don't like that option, you can always try and convince people that the 4th amendment should be repealed. Good luck with that one though.

Or we keep doing what we are doing, and not notice the surveillance until Kung Fury makes a thread about it and we start questioning each other, when in reality we really have nothing to fear except for some government worker to see our weird porn history or in some cases, suspicious activity. This could lead to a valid warrant and search of your person more in depth.

Or we can be like Soviethooves, pretend everything is fine, and disregard the rights and freedoms this nation is supposed to stand for. We can pretend that increased government power keeps us safe when in reality it does not. We can be assured that

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people self-censoring themselves because the government has this capability is not a problem. We can delude ourselves into thinking that the government has our best interests in mind and

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would never attempt to disrupt social or political movements. We can lie to ourselves and say that

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mass surveillance has never before been a problem in human history and even if it has been in other countries, its ok when 'murica does it. And if anyone disagrees with us on the internet and provides evidence for their claims, we can just call them some tin foil hat wearing crazy dude.

If you do something weird, it's gonna be seen. So, again....suck...it...up.

Well why not post your browser history along with your real name, on here? If you're doing something weird it's gonna be seen, so suck it up. Also I'm guessing if I participate in a peaceful activist group and the

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FBI threatens to put me on a domestic terrorism watch list if I don't spy on the group for them, I'm supposed to suck that up too, right?

But you know....since I'm in this thread...*puts tinfoil hat on*

But you know...since I'm on the Limelight forums...

[Soviethooves]

Keyword..."assist". Never said it stopped anything.

I could honestly care less to list my browser history since I really haven't done anything suspicious and if the government believes they should look into it, fine by me. No harm no foul.

No need to be scared about some "Big Brother" theory when in reality it's just extra security measures seeing as the US is hated by a good bit of people.

If they put you on the watchlist, suck it up and defend yourself and prove them wrong. The world isn't a nice place and in these times, security is an important system needed. If you don't want to stay on the watchlist, argue about their reasoning instead of sitting around getting pissed.

Do.Something.About it.

[connbob]

I've mentioned this in another thread about tor and bitcoin but:
"Saying you don't need privacy because you have nothing to hide is like saying you don't need freedom of speech because you have nothing to say." - Edward Snowden

[Kung Fury]

Keyword..."assist". Never said it stopped anything.

When you find something to back the claim that mass surveillance assists in thwarting crimes, feel free to post it. None of the pro-surveillance users in this thread have provided any kind of evidence to back their claims of mass surveillance helping to stop crimes/terrorism.

I could honestly care less to list my browser history since I really haven't done anything suspicious and if the government believes they should look into it, fine by me. No harm no foul.

You don't get to decide what is considered suspicious and what isn't. To you something suspicious is something like looking up how to build a bomb. To them, something suspicious is participating in a peaceful activist group.

Also what if you apply this "no harm, no foul" philosophy to other aspects of your life? Is it ok for the authorities to walk into your house at any time to check that you're doing nothing wrong? Is it ok for someone to follow you around wherever you go and watch what you're doing? If you're doing nothing wrong, you shouldn't have a problem with it, right?

No need to be scared about some "Big Brother" theory when in reality it's just extra security measures seeing as the US is hated by a good bit of people.

Innocent people are still plagued by the fear of crime and terrorism, even with this system in place. As I pointed out before, mass surveillance systems have not and most likely will not stop any terrorism or crimes. What mass surveillance is good at however, is monitoring domestic groups that have a possibility of subverting the status quo. This isn't some conspiracy theory either. We know that the NSA and FBI were monitoring Martin Luther King's communications and were trying to disrupt the Civil Rights Movement and other activist groups that were considered a "national security risk". More info

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here and

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here.

If they put you on the watchlist, suck it up and defend yourself and prove them wrong. The world isn't a nice place and in these times, security is an important system needed. If you don't want to stay on the watchlist, argue about their reasoning instead of sitting around getting pissed.

The problem is that the process of getting removed from such a list is inadequate.

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This is the ACLU's guide on what to do if you find that you're on the no-fly list.

If you are a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident, and the TSC determines that you are on the No Fly List, DHS TRIP will send you a letter informing you of your status on the No Fly List and providing the option to submit and receive additional information. If you choose that option, DHS TRIP will provide a second letter identifying the general criterion under which you have been placed on the No Fly List and possibly including an unclassified summary of the reasons for your inclusion on the List. You should know that the government’s summary likely will not include all of its reasons for your placement on the List, and in some cases the government will choose not to provide any summary at all. The government also will not provide you any of the evidence it relied upon in deciding to place you on the List, and it may also withhold information in its possession that undercuts its basis for putting you on the list. Finally, the government does not provide a live hearing at which you could testify, or give you an opportunity to cross-examine witnesses against you.

So "sucking it up, defending yourself, and proving them wrong" as you say, is not exactly a viable option.


In your post you failed to address the fact that using warrantless mass surveillance methods to catch criminals is a direct violation of the 4th amendment right that protects all American citizens. The 4th amendment states:

right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

This protects all Americans, even drug dealers, hitmen, and child predators. People seem fine with allowing mass surveillance to stop these kinds of people, but that's not how rights work. They either apply to everyone all the time, or they apply to nobody ever. Our constitutional rights and protections are what prevents the United States from descending into an oppressive, authoritarian regime, that's the reason the founders of this nation decided to put them in place. People who think that mass surveillance and subverting constitutional rights to catch lawbreakers are hypocrites. People who claim to believe in rule of law yet are fine with selectively applying the law are not being truthful.

Do.Something.About it.

The first step to solving a problem like this is awareness. Unfortunately, not everyone wants to see the problem.

I've mentioned this in another thread about tor and bitcoin but:

"Saying you don't need privacy because you have nothing to hide is like saying you don't need freedom of speech because you have nothing to say." - Edward Snowden

This right here. The right to privacy is of equal importance to the right to free expression. Edward Snowden is a hero and true patriot.

[Soviethooves]

Anyways, try if you want, but nothing will really stop the mass surveillance. If you don't like it, sorry. Gotta live with it at the moment seeing as it's not really negative or a positive.

[goigle]

Well, if you are a normal law abiding citizen why are you so concerned about people snooping on you. If they see you like that kinky anime porn they don't care, they are more interested if you search keywords like "Bomb making" etc.

That's my view

From Snowden:

Some might say "I don't care if they violate my privacy; I've got nothing to hide." Help them understand that they are misunderstanding the fundamental nature of human rights. Nobody needs to justify why they "need" a right: the burden of justification falls on the one seeking to infringe upon the right. But even if they did, you can't give away the rights of others because they're not useful to you. More simply, the majority cannot vote away the natural rights of the minority.

But even if they could, help them think for a moment about what they're saying. Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say.

A free press benefits more than just those who read the paper.

I'm not a Snowden supporter, but he is correct about rights.

Additionally, the concern is not that the government will care if you watch porn, it's that when you collect the whole "haystack" you have store the whole haystack somewhere. The concern a lot of people have is if other people somehow gain access to the stored "haystacks." It may seem farfetched, but then remember what Snowden managed to do.