May 16, 2020, 07:45 PM
May 16, 2020, 07:45 PM
May 16, 2020, 07:50 PM
(May 16, 2020, 07:45 PM)goigle Wrote: [ -> ](May 16, 2020, 07:29 PM)Lord Octagon Wrote: [ -> ]Depends on what way the particular morning-after pill works. Some just stop ovulation or inhibit the sperm cells. But some actually prevent implantation of the fertilised egg to the uterine wall - this would be a form of abortion and would be morally illicit (actually, all forms of contraception are morally illicit, but we're not debating that at this moment)
This is where the argument usually goes. At such an early stage they can't feel anything
I addressed this in OP:
For example, some will say "well, the unborn are not persons because they cannot feel pain". The problem is there are many born, disabled humans who cannot feel pain but they're still persons. More importantly, any animal that could feel pain under this criteria would be a person.
and the moral issue is nonexistent especially if the people doing their deed were doing it for pleasure and not to have kids.
Also addressed:
The bottom line is that if you engage in an activity that is ordered towards creating helpless children (sex), then you have an obligation to provide for those children that you create.
Sex is ordered towards creation - whether you intended to create children or not, whether it was for purely pleasure or pro-creation, it's fundamentally geared towards created children. And if children result from this action, you now have a responsibility to care for it (both men and women, as I also explained in OP)
May 16, 2020, 07:52 PM
(May 16, 2020, 07:43 PM)Lord Octagon Wrote: [ -> ](May 16, 2020, 07:32 PM)Overlewd Wrote: [ -> ]Haha okay it was a bit funny the first time, I get the joke like imagine caring about a clump of cells more than a woman, hehe xd.
But pls stop I'm starting to get worried you are serious :(
After fertilization, body parts like sperm and egg cease to be. In their place is a new, whole body, or a human organism. The question I ask you is: should all human organisms, regardless of how able-bodied they are, or how mentally developed they are, regardless of their age, race, sex, or any other factor, be treated equally and have a basic right to live?
And my answer is no. Treating a tiny featureless bunch of cells the same as a grown human person is retarded.
Your other arguments are completely meaningless because plants, bacteria, and such, are all alive and considered organisms.
May 16, 2020, 07:57 PM
Woman: doctor i'd like an abortion because I was forced into having sex and they didn't use protection, I'm in an abusive relationship and I'm scared for my life, I don't want to raise my kids in this environment because they are susceptible to drug use and possible abuse.
The father is a felony, he has a firearm that he shouldn't have and has threatened me, and has talked about hurting me further if I get the police.
Doctor: haha fuck off, pro life ennit
The father is a felony, he has a firearm that he shouldn't have and has threatened me, and has talked about hurting me further if I get the police.
Doctor: haha fuck off, pro life ennit
May 16, 2020, 07:59 PM
(May 16, 2020, 07:52 PM)Overlewd Wrote: [ -> ](May 16, 2020, 07:43 PM)Lord Octagon Wrote: [ -> ](May 16, 2020, 07:32 PM)Overlewd Wrote: [ -> ]Haha okay it was a bit funny the first time, I get the joke like imagine caring about a clump of cells more than a woman, hehe xd.
But pls stop I'm starting to get worried you are serious :(
After fertilization, body parts like sperm and egg cease to be. In their place is a new, whole body, or a human organism. The question I ask you is: should all human organisms, regardless of how able-bodied they are, or how mentally developed they are, regardless of their age, race, sex, or any other factor, be treated equally and have a basic right to live?
And my answer is no. Treating a tiny featureless bunch of cells the same as a grown human person is retarded.
Your other arguments are completely meaningless because plants, bacteria, and such, are all alive and considered organisms.
Only HUMAN organisms are entitled to HUMAN rights. Only alive human beings can be considered persons. Human rights are not applied based on age, race, or ability - "Just as it's illegal to kill a 2 year old because we don't want to take care of them, it should be illegal to kill a younger child, an unborn child, for that same reason if that child is a human being like you and I."
You fail to come up with an acceptable, alternative definition of personhood. We have human rights because we are all human persons - a zygote is a stage of development.
The birth canal doesn't magically issue personhood.
May 16, 2020, 07:59 PM
(May 16, 2020, 07:50 PM)Lord Octagon Wrote: [ -> ](May 16, 2020, 07:45 PM)goigle Wrote: [ -> ]This is where the argument usually goes. At such an early stage they can't feel anything
I addressed this in OP:
For example, some will say "well, the unborn are not persons because they cannot feel pain". The problem is there are many born, disabled humans who cannot feel pain but they're still persons. More importantly, any animal that could feel pain under this criteria would be a person.
and the moral issue is nonexistent especially if the people doing their deed were doing it for pleasure and not to have kids.
Also addressed:
The bottom line is that if you engage in an activity that is ordered towards creating helpless children (sex), then you have an obligation to provide for those children that you create.
Sex is ordered towards creation - whether you intended to create children or not, whether it was for purely pleasure or pro-creation, it's fundamentally geared towards created children. And if children result from this action, you now have a responsibility to care for it (both men and women, as I also explained in OP)
I wasn't talking about pain. I was talking about anything. They are not conscious and never were. They are not sentient. Someone who is disabled is. It's not even close to a fair comparison: not being able to feel pain is a limitation, sure, but the person can still talk and eat and live. They're still sentient. An embryo and fetus are not until 18 - 25ish weeks and that's a very low level of sentience. 92% of abortions are done before week 13, so well before sentience.
Sex is ordered toward creation, sure, but having sex for pleasure is far from unique to humans.
May 16, 2020, 08:00 PM
In my opinion, it's none of our business to discuss a subject like this honestly. The majority of the people who have commented or will comment in this thread will be male, between the ages of 15 and 25 and would have joined to roleplay on Garry's Mod: Not exactly the demographic who will know what an abortion is like or has ever had or witnessed one firsthand.
As far as the UK goes, abortions are legal and are almost certainly going to continue to be long into the future. For anyone wanting to read up on the process on how the NHS does it, look below:
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/abortion/
As far as the UK goes, abortions are legal and are almost certainly going to continue to be long into the future. For anyone wanting to read up on the process on how the NHS does it, look below:
May 16, 2020, 08:02 PM
Yeah. As stated in the previous thread. You seriously want to tell me that for example a minor should be forced to carry out a baby that she got by getting raped by for example her relatives and just give it to adoption?
How on earth could a not-developed pile of cells considered more than a "fully" developed, alive human being that is conscious and already living a life.
Explain desu.
How on earth could a not-developed pile of cells considered more than a "fully" developed, alive human being that is conscious and already living a life.
Explain desu.
May 16, 2020, 08:04 PM
I think women should be allowed to decide for them self if they wanna abort wether thats right or wrong im not gonna go into, that being siad, i think its only fair that if she can terminate a mans Child the man should also have the right to press the eject button and gtfo and thats fair... Dave Chapell was spot on om that one
Also
Ur a murder
Also
Ur a murder
May 16, 2020, 08:04 PM
On a real note-
It's a persons CHOICE, whether they want to get an abortion.
Yes it can be misused by people who constantly have unprotected sex, but at the end of the day, it's personal choice - if you think that someones choice to decide whether to have a child or not should be over-ruled by religious stuff, then you're still living in the fucking dark ages, even if abortion was made illegal, people would still find ways.
If the baby has a life expectancy of a few weeks due to a health problem, why put the mother through the trauma of losing a child, and why put the baby through terrible pain, JUST BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE IN PRO-LIFE. It honestly makes, no sense at all.
I don't understand why anyone would want to force women into having kids if they don't want to.
It's dumb, there is nothing you can say that will change my mind, and if you truly believe this type of stuff, you're part of the problem.
It's a persons CHOICE, whether they want to get an abortion.
Yes it can be misused by people who constantly have unprotected sex, but at the end of the day, it's personal choice - if you think that someones choice to decide whether to have a child or not should be over-ruled by religious stuff, then you're still living in the fucking dark ages, even if abortion was made illegal, people would still find ways.
If the baby has a life expectancy of a few weeks due to a health problem, why put the mother through the trauma of losing a child, and why put the baby through terrible pain, JUST BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE IN PRO-LIFE. It honestly makes, no sense at all.
I don't understand why anyone would want to force women into having kids if they don't want to.
It's dumb, there is nothing you can say that will change my mind, and if you truly believe this type of stuff, you're part of the problem.
May 16, 2020, 08:06 PM
I agree with the statement from
I certainly have no experience with abortion, and no matter my opinions on the subject, they are just that, my opinion.
To me I consider how I feel if a 15 year old kid on the internet tells me how I should and should not do my job, and recognize that I have no reason to enforce or influence my opinion upon others.
I certainly have no experience with abortion, and no matter my opinions on the subject, they are just that, my opinion.
To me I consider how I feel if a 15 year old kid on the internet tells me how I should and should not do my job, and recognize that I have no reason to enforce or influence my opinion upon others.
May 16, 2020, 08:27 PM
(May 16, 2020, 08:00 PM)Ben Wrote: [ -> ]Not exactly the demographic who will know what an abortion is like or has ever had or witnessed one firsthand.
I'm going to speak about something I haven't before, when I was 17 my girlfriend at the time fell pregnant, she aborted it herself with a litre of rum. I have witnessed one first hand, I have been personally effected by one and I have severe trust issues with most women I find myself in a relationship with because of an abortion.
May 16, 2020, 08:32 PM
Your girlfriend being a retard is *slightly* different from the legitimate medical procedure to abort a foetus.
PS: Maybe use a johnny next time if you or your girlfriend doesn't want a kid, easiest fix I KNOW RIGHT!
PS: Maybe use a johnny next time if you or your girlfriend doesn't want a kid, easiest fix I KNOW RIGHT!
May 16, 2020, 08:36 PM
See this is where and how threads get closed.
That is horrible, I am deeply sorry for what happened to you, and your unborn child.
That being said, it is a very sensitive issue. When people talk about personal tragedies that have personally affected them, they tend to expect a certain response from people, and, well, likely someone is going to say something that won’t sit right with you.
To be clear here I am not blaming you, I just never think it is a good idea to bring in personal stories, unless you’re sure you’re absolutely comfortable with whatever response one may have.
That being said, it is a very sensitive issue. When people talk about personal tragedies that have personally affected them, they tend to expect a certain response from people, and, well, likely someone is going to say something that won’t sit right with you.
To be clear here I am not blaming you, I just never think it is a good idea to bring in personal stories, unless you’re sure you’re absolutely comfortable with whatever response one may have.
May 16, 2020, 08:41 PM
(May 16, 2020, 08:32 PM)Cole_ Wrote: [ -> ]Your girlfriend being a retard is *slightly* different from the legitimate medical procedure to abort a foetus.
PS: Maybe use a johnny next time if you or your girlfriend doesn't want a kid, easiest fix I KNOW RIGHT!
Fun fact, we did and she was on the pill. We'd already spoken about it and decided we wanted to keep it.
Your point about the method she used is irrelevant, even if she had had it done by a medical professional, she still caused the death of my child, no?