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(Mar 5, 2018, 09:20 AM)Porg Wrote: [ -> ] So chances are If I'm dealing with something (another @ usually) and a less important @ comes in that could be dealt with later or perhaps even a PR chances are I'll ignore it. 

The problem with this is almost any call can be dealt with in a PR. If there is evidence of a rule break, whether game breaking or not, it can be settled in a PR. Ignoring an @ call just because it isn't important in the grand scheme of things is not beneficial to anyone besides yourself. Obviously, someone prop smashing the whole server takes precedence over an RDM, but designating a rule breakage as of lesser importance devalues a rule.
I think you're jumping from one to 100 

I didn't say if it's worthy of a PR I ignore it all together I meant it as a classification if I'm already on something else. And then I would usually move on to a less important call after
(Mar 6, 2018, 12:24 AM)Porg Wrote: [ -> ]I think you're jumping from one to 100 

I didn't say if it's worthy of a PR I ignore it all together I meant it as a classification if I'm already on something else. And then I would usually move on to a less important call after

Better to jump from one to 100 here and get the full understanding than jump from one to 100 in a more serious thread (courthouse as an example). Going to the extreme is good for things like this to fully understand ideas.
(Mar 6, 2018, 01:15 AM)Hungames Wrote: [ -> ]
(Mar 6, 2018, 12:24 AM)Porg Wrote: [ -> ]I think you're jumping from one to 100 

I didn't say if it's worthy of a PR I ignore it all together I meant it as a classification if I'm already on something else. And then I would usually move on to a less important call after

Better to jump from one to 100 here and get the full understanding than jump from one to 100 in a more serious thread (courthouse as an example). Going to the extreme is good for things like this to fully understand ideas.
Eh I'll give you that, fair point.
As a staff member myself, I like to believe that I have never mistreated someone because of what I think of them, I always valued staying impartial and acted the same manner to everyone around me. First of all, what I'm going to say is not only about this situation, this thread, this post but throughout my time here and these comments are not directed to anyone specifically.

The community, might see bias as a lone problem but I think it aligns with toxicity. The more toxicity there is, the more bias is thought to be existent. I can see that people in this thread care about the community, as well as people in other threads that bring problems up as you wouldn't bother if you didn't care except the ones that are at times making questionable posts that might only be posted to try and stir stuff or gain attention. There are a lot of ways to handle it, I've face palmed on actions taken by both sides, I've face palmed on actions taken by both sides while I was a veteran. The main reason I wanted to return to the team was to assist in decreasing the toxicity. You might say what does toxicity have anything to do with bias, and let me tell you, it has everything.

When a player makes a post or an action that is against the rules, staff deals with it. That's why we exist, but we also live in 2018 and for years people have gotten more and more self-centered. When a staff member punishes you for something, it's not because we are bias towards you, it's because you've done something that does NOT align with the rules. After the punishment, maybe a several more, with the growing number of toxic posts, jabs at staff people start to believe that they are targeted even more. The only reason you are being punished is because of your decisions, not because the staff member hates you. We are a team, and as much as we work together, we discuss and we at times argue. We talk to each other about the decisions made, HR especially does this.

The toxicity aligns with "bias" because the more toxic a person gets, the more punishment the person receives and in the end the more it is thought to be "bias". The world doesn't revolve around you, we have better things to do than spend our times waiting for a mistake to punish you. I'm sorry but that's how it is. Again, if you get punished, it is due to an action you decided to take.

Some of you, seem to believe it is cool to point out problems where none exist, sometimes there are reports both in-game and on the forums that just look off. By off I mean, there is nothing wrong with what has been done but if one wants to see it that way, one does and if the staff point that out, staff is at fault again. When actions that favor you are done, we are not at fault but if we decide on something that is not in your favor, we somehow have a bullseye on our chest.

The current way "bias" is thrown is not doing the community any favor, it isn't constructive and it does not help bring a solution or improve the state of the community (except some suggested solutions). I can tell you from where I stand, I do not support or accept bias actions, neither does the other staff members and we've made sure it's not a real threat to the community's well being. It's important for the staff team that the community works well and we make our community members happy and we care as much as you if not more. I've myself have given hours to the community in-game and out of it, so have other members. We have devoted a lot of time and we definitely wouldn't want "bias" to effect the community we have spent hours for.
(Mar 6, 2018, 12:24 AM)Porg Wrote: [ -> ]I think you're jumping from one to 100 

I didn't say if it's worthy of a PR I ignore it all together I meant it as a classification if I'm already on something else. And then I would usually move on to a less important call after

Hm?


Quote:or perhaps even a PR chances are I'll ignore it. 
(Mar 6, 2018, 05:59 PM)IVNT Wrote: [ -> ]
(Mar 6, 2018, 12:24 AM)Porg Wrote: [ -> ]-snip-
Hm?
Quote:or perhaps even a PR chances are I'll ignore it. 

(Mar 5, 2018, 09:20 AM)Porg Wrote: [ -> ]So chances are If I'm dealing with something (another @ usually) and a less important @ comes in that could be dealt with later or perhaps even a PR chances are I'll ignore it.

It's not a case of "ignoring @ calls because they can be PR'd."
It's a case of "ignoring less important @ calls because I'm already on an @ call."
Good job ignoring all context that came with the post though.
(Mar 6, 2018, 06:21 PM)Doctor Internet Wrote: [ -> ]
(Mar 6, 2018, 05:59 PM)IVNT Wrote: [ -> ]
(Mar 6, 2018, 12:24 AM)Porg Wrote: [ -> ]-snip-
Hm?
Quote:or perhaps even a PR chances are I'll ignore it. 

(Mar 5, 2018, 09:20 AM)Porg Wrote: [ -> ]So chances are If I'm dealing with something (another @ usually) and a less important @ comes in that could be dealt with later or perhaps even a PR chances are I'll ignore it.

It's not a case of "ignoring @ calls because they can be PR'd."
It's a case of "ignoring less important @ calls because I'm already on an @ call."
Good job ignoring all context that came with the post though.

k.
This is the same post as I made in the Community Bias thread

As pointed out a thousand times by this point, there will always be bias. This can only be removed if we remove the human element from server-administration. As we unfortunately at this time do not have access to Elon Musk's secret AI development, we're left with having humans serving as staff-members. Humans are a good work-force but they have their quirks. They can get bored, tired, hungry, annoyed, angry or irrational. They are a buggy bunch of hardware, they can do a really good job.

Yeah, staff might have issues. Yeah, there's bias, but I personally think that our staff-team is really good. We're far from perfect and there's a lot of improvement that can be made, but the staff is still a pretty good bunch. Countless hours have been put in for the benefit of the community, not for their benefit. That's something that we can't forget. 

As for community bias, and staff-members being close friends with some people is only natural. We're social, and it's a community because we all connect together (some better than others though). I can't ban the staff from having friends, nor can I sit on top of their shoulders everytime they're evaluating a situation that one of their friends might be involved in. I have to trust them to remain as unbiased as possible, and that they'll do the job properly. Sometimes, the quality of this can vary. Proving that a staff-member in question has in fact acted with bias is very hard to prove. The staff deal with a lot of people every day, and sometimes friends of the staff-member will be involved.

If the staff-member shows leniency or "mildness" in a situation where his friend is involved, then it's hard to determine if this was done because of the friend being involved, if the situation was messy and chaotic, or if the rules are not defined properly. There can be many reasons for a staff-member to show leniency, and not every situation is necessarily contaminated by bias. One of my tasks is to investigate cases where this might be a possibility, and it's a difficult thing. I can't act on my feelings, I have to act on evidence. If I am to demote someone for whatever reason, then I need to be able to present a valid and thoroughly investigated case showing that the staff-member in question did, in fact, go against the guidelines or rules. There have been several situations where I've been confident that a bias has contaminated a situation, without being able to act on it as a fact. If an SA-HR acts purely on only his personal opinion without facts or evidence, then the SA-HR will break all trust that he has with the team and/or the community, and the credibility of the position will be deteriorated. 

Another thing that's been pointed out that staff are not the only ones who might be biased. The same can be said for players. 
Admin X and Y might act and do the same, but players who are already negative towards Admin X will yell and criticize to their heart's content, while not raising a brow if Admin Y does it. An Admins actions and behavior is always under scrutiny, and it doesn't help if you have a bunch of people who will yell for the smallest thing. 

We sometimes work in a very hostile and toxic environment, and it gets tiring quickly. We do what's right, not necessarily what's popular and that will turn some players against us. Sometimes, we mess up though, and we try to correct it to the best of our capability. Some players are quite hostile towards any form of authority, and if they show a hostile attitude towards us, then they can't expect us to treat them like our best-friends. Treat the staff with respect, and I'm 100% confident that you'll get a more respectful treatment back than if you were to treat us with disrespect, slander and toxic memes. Don't kiss our asses, don't be a brown-nose, but treat us like you want to be treated, and we'll do our best to return the favour. 

This being said, everyone are able to contact myself or  if they have any complaints or evidence that they want to hand us. We will look into it to the best of our capability, but it helps if we get evidence and proper detail instead of "ADMIN X ABUSED ME IM DONE. FUCKING DEMOTE HIM AND FIX THIS NOW". Claims are claims, and the more evidence we're given the better. 

I often hear that we never deal with staff and community-problems, but Overlewd and I sit in way too many meetings, way too many chats, digging through way too many logs and having way too many discussions for this to be true. We try to be as transparent as we can, but it's quite difficult when it comes to us dealing with a staff-member internally. The last thing we need is a public witch-hunt, more memes and people making fun of the staff-member in question because they were confronted and punished by us. The less interference, the easier it is for us to keep it clean and drama-free. 
We do not sit on our thumbs not doing anything about complaints and reports however.
I'm sure there are many staff- and ex-staffmembers who can attest to me being a strict no-fun asshole in these serious chats. Those chats aren't fun, but they happen, and it's not like I say "woooopseee, you made yet another booboo, oh well, don't do that next time". I keep notes of all important staff-confrontation, so I always have an overview and notes to refer to when a staff-member has gotten enough chances. 

HR speaks with staff-members daily about internal issues, concerns and such, and we're constantly trying to improve and work out the issues. 

Quick thoughts about the following:

Admins spawning several cars in to sell them:

As pointed out already, there isn't a lot of difference between doing this and spawning in entities or props, besides the fact that the vehicles are naturally interactable. This doesn't really give a staff-member an unfair advantage, it really just makes things simpler. This is not abuse of power as I see it.
As long as this power is used to benefit passiveRP, and not aggressiveRP then I have no issues with it.


Preventing staff-members from being in clans to avoid bias:

This has been under consideration, and it's been a tempting fix for bias. Staff have always been biased when clans are involved, and they always will. No clan is really an exception here. FUMUKU, SAA, Cerberus, Aeris, Lionscrest... You name it. If a staff-member is involved then there's a big chance that bias will be an issue at one point in time. 

Removing staff-members from clans would be a quick fix, but it would have consequences. Staff would be demotivated, demoralized, and they'd feel like they've been dealt with like a common minge. I know this because I would have felt this way. For many years, being in SAA was really the only thing that kept me around on FL. Clans was the only thing I actually found to be interesting ingame, and I don't blame others for feeling the same. If I take away a big motivator for old and experienced staff-members to stay around, then they'd drop like flies. We'd be able to replace them with other staff-members, sure; but they'd soon also grow tired and they'd have to be replaced. 

Players are meant to have fun, but also Admins. If the admin-role was only about administrating then it'd be the shittiest position ever. Working for free without reward, appreciation or privileges. When is the last time you've complemented a staff-member for their work?

No work and play makes Jack a dull boy

If we were to note down all the complaints an admin gets vs compliments, then I think you guys would be surprised about how un-appreciated it is to be a staff-member. #SaveAnAdminGiveACompliment 
*cough* Not to even mention how unrewarding it is to be a dev. They bury themselves in code for hours upon hours, and only get contacted about their work when something messes up. #SaveADevGiveAThanks
And Teachers? Jesus hell, they take so much work-load of our hands by answering the tedious questions, teaching players how to play this god-awful game that GMOD is. I'm honestly somewhat surprised that a teacher hasn't eaten a bullet out of frustration from dealing with some of you. #SaveATeacherThankThemForTheirHelp
(Mar 6, 2018, 07:31 PM)Enzyme Wrote: [ -> ]-something about not being appreciated enough-

bet you dont even thank bin men every morning they collect your trash for doing their job, either
(Mar 7, 2018, 06:23 PM)Tails Wrote: [ -> ]
(Mar 6, 2018, 07:31 PM)Enzyme Wrote: [ -> ]-something about not being appreciated enough-

bet you dont even thank bin men every morning they collect your trash for doing their job, either

Except they get paid and admins don't? Even devs get on average a lower hourly rate than garbage men, so we're sure as hell not doing this for the money. Respect is the least they deserve for putting up the shit that they have to and you seem to be enough proof for that argument.

Seriously though, why are you even here? Does this get you off or are you trying to avenge your 15 year old martyr?
(Mar 7, 2018, 07:17 PM)Noble Wrote: [ -> ]
(Mar 7, 2018, 06:23 PM)Tails Wrote: [ -> ]
(Mar 6, 2018, 07:31 PM)Enzyme Wrote: [ -> ]-something about not being appreciated enough-

bet you dont even thank bin men every morning they collect your trash for doing their job, either

Seriously though, why are you even here?

Lol just to get reactions like that, it's the reason I get out of bed in the morning
(Mar 7, 2018, 08:13 PM)Tails Wrote: [ -> ]
(Mar 7, 2018, 07:17 PM)Noble Wrote: [ -> ]
(Mar 7, 2018, 06:23 PM)Tails Wrote: [ -> ]bet you dont even thank bin men every morning they collect your trash for doing their job, either

Seriously though, why are you even here?

Lol just to get reactions like that, it's the reason I get out of bed in the morning

Kinda a sad existence if you ask me, and I'm keeping it pretty tame.

It was a valid questions though as you've admitted that you're not here for the community or the majority of people here. Want to know why I'm here? 

  1. To make cool shit
  2. Create things that players can enjoy and interact with
  3. Brighten the future for Limelight
Notice how none of that even remotely aligns to your reason? I can say pretty confidently that I'm here for the right reasons. Notice how your respect isn't on that list? It's because I'm not here discussing this to earn or force your respect. The staff that haven't blasted you like they could have definitely deserve that respect though as they aren't compensated in anyway to deal with those who act like you. 

Want people to take you and your opinions seriously? Start acting like an adult more than the kid you idolize. I promise you that the moment you do I'll be the first here to recognize it. Acting like an adult can be tough but I promise life is a lot easier when you do.
(Mar 7, 2018, 08:28 PM)Noble Wrote: [ -> ]
(Mar 7, 2018, 08:13 PM)Tails Wrote: [ -> ]
(Mar 7, 2018, 07:17 PM)Noble Wrote: [ -> ]Seriously though, why are you even here?

Lol just to get reactions like that, it's the reason I get out of bed in the morning

Kinda a sad existence if you ask me, and I'm keeping it pretty tame.

It was a valid questions though as you've admitted that you're not here for the community or the majority of people here. Want to know why I'm here? 

  1. To make cool shit
  2. Create things that players can enjoy and interact with
  3. Brighten the future for Limelight
Notice how none of that even remotely aligns to your reason? I can say pretty confidently that I'm here for the right reasons. Notice how your respect isn't on that list? It's because I'm not here discussing this to earn or force your respect. The staff that haven't blasted you like they could have definitely deserve that respect though as they aren't compensated in anyway to deal with those who act like you. 

Want people to take you and your opinions seriously? Start acting like an adult more than the kid you idolize. I promise you that the moment you do I'll be the first here to recognize it. Acting like an adult can be tough but I promise life is a lot easier when you do.

Why do you have to be so agressive, no negative. He can act like a kid if he wants and you have NO right to tell him to act his age, its a shit move and makes you look like a inconsiderate man. People can act how they wish to act so don't come here acting all big because your older than him...
(Mar 7, 2018, 08:46 PM)IVNT Wrote: [ -> ]
(Mar 7, 2018, 08:28 PM)Noble Wrote: [ -> ]
(Mar 7, 2018, 08:13 PM)Tails Wrote: [ -> ]Lol just to get reactions like that, it's the reason I get out of bed in the morning

Kinda a sad existence if you ask me, and I'm keeping it pretty tame.

It was a valid questions though as you've admitted that you're not here for the community or the majority of people here. Want to know why I'm here? 

  1. To make cool shit
  2. Create things that players can enjoy and interact with
  3. Brighten the future for Limelight
Notice how none of that even remotely aligns to your reason? I can say pretty confidently that I'm here for the right reasons. Notice how your respect isn't on that list? It's because I'm not here discussing this to earn or force your respect. The staff that haven't blasted you like they could have definitely deserve that respect though as they aren't compensated in anyway to deal with those who act like you. 

Want people to take you and your opinions seriously? Start acting like an adult more than the kid you idolize. I promise you that the moment you do I'll be the first here to recognize it. Acting like an adult can be tough but I promise life is a lot easier when you do.

Why do you have to be so agressive, no negative. He can act like a kid if he wants and you have NO right to tell him to act his age, its a shit move and makes you look like a inconsiderate man. People can act how they wish to act so don't come here acting all big because your older than him...

If you can't conduct yourself in a mature manner you shouldn't be here, simple as that. If you want to minge about and act like a 5 year old DarkRP is always available to you. His actions have shown that he can't and I would expect better from someone his age. 

Now you're going to try to call me out for being aggressive and negative? That's the pot calling the kettle black. I've spent countless hours dedicating my time to create things for players to enjoy, what about you? I'm going to call out players that act like minges just as I've called you out before.

Admins have given you the leniency and benefit of the doubt to act immature, attempt to ruin the fun for others, and dance along the edges of the rules but you won't get that from me. You have no rights, play nice.
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