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Hellow dearest Limelight members,
I've not slept for about 25 hours, which now leads me to create this thread!

I'm vaguely insecure if anyone will use this thread, but I'll give it a shot.

As you can probably tell I have to deal with the German laws on a daily basis, it being my job! I sometimes dislike it, but i suppose it's stuck with me now.

Ever felt like having a question, maybe out of curiosity, about any German laws or maybe something about the German police or judicial system? Feel free to leave it here.

Did you ever hear about 'Jakob von Metzler' and the whole 'unmittelbarer Zwang' debate?

(Jan 7, 2018, 11:16 AM)Rizion Wrote: [ -> ]Did you ever hear about 'Jakob von Metzler' and the whole 'unmittelbarer Zwang' debate?

Of course, if im not mistaking atleast.
I'm talking about the Case where a Vice - Police - President has threatened to use violence, therefore threatened to torture Jakob Metzler to get the location of the child he had kidnapped. Little did they know that the child was already dead whilst doing that.

This example is brough up all the time when talking about "Verbotene Vernehmungsmethoden" - Prohibited interrogation methods. Because, what the vice president did was just that: a crime against § 136a StGB. If you didnt already know, he was sentenced by court to a fine as they have noticed the circumstances and the reasoning of the acts of the police vice president. Despite all that, a crime is still a crime.

I also have to correct you there ( Wink

), the threatening of torture can never be "Unmittelbarer Zwang". "UZ" is a rightful police measure, covered by:
Proscecuting measures: StPO Measure in combination with §§ 60, 61, 64 (And destination) PAG (Bavaria)
Preventive measures: PAG Measure in combination with §§ 54, 58, 61, 64 (And destination) PAG (Bavaria)

My opinion on this, you might ask?
Altough, regarding the sitiation alltogether, i can see that the Vice President had a good will, did infact never use violence against him, and tought his acts were justified. (Rechtfertigender Notstand §34 StGB not possible due to the fact that Jakob Metzner being in custody and the vice president being a police officer.)

For anyone not knowing what §34 StGB is about: Its a "Rechtfertigungsgrund" (Read more here: https://limelightgaming.net/forums/thread-19092.html ) which permits commiting crime if you can prevent damage from yourself or someone else regarding life, freedom, and so on.

We call it the "Cannibal Paragraph", as this permits cannibalism, for example when two persons are stranded and starving, and one can only save his own life by eating the other, IF otherwise both would have died.

Returning back to the topic: As said i see why he did it, but commiting a crime is still commiting a crime. And giving you a little inside view: Even tho he was revoked from his former position, he bacially has been promoted to a higher position within the police. However, such behaviour cannot be tolerated: If courts would allow such behaviour, who knows what police officer would do and bring up whatever excuses to threaten or even injure possible criminals. This would have been a door opener for radical justice.

(Jan 7, 2018, 11:41 AM)Luvbread Wrote: [ -> ]
(Jan 7, 2018, 11:16 AM)Rizion Wrote: [ -> ]Did you ever hear about 'Jakob von Metzler' and the whole 'unmittelbarer Zwang' debate?

Of course, if im not mistaking atleast.
I'm talking about the Case where a Vice - Police - President has threatened to use violence, therefore threatened to torture Jakob Metzler to get the location of the child he had kidnapped. Little did they know that the child was already dead whilst doing that.
Jakob von metzler was the one getting kidnapped, while Markus Gäfgen was the kidnapper. (probably irelevant but thought I might add it just bc)

This example is brough up all the time when talking about "Verbotene Vernehmungsmethoden" - Prohibited interrogation methods. Because, what the vice president did was just that: a crime against § 136a StGB. If you didnt already know, he was sentenced by court to a fine as they have noticed the circumstances and the reasoning of the acts of the police vice president. Despite all that, a crime is still a crime.

I also have to correct you there ( ), the threatening of torture can never be "Unmittelbarer Zwang". "UZ" is a rightful police measure, covered by:
Proscecuting measures: StPO Measure in combination with §§ 60, 61, 64 (And destination) PAG (Bavaria)
Preventive measures: PAG Measure in combination with §§ 54, 58, 61, 64 (And destination) PAG (Bavaria)
Thanks for telling me. That was probably the thing I missedwhich prevented me from completeing the puzzle discussed the topic with some ppl and wasn't really abaled to understand how a german law would allow torture, assuming that the law I had to look at was the one about 'unmittelbarer Zwang'.

My opinion on this, you might ask?
Altough, regarding the sitiation alltogether, i can see that the Vice President had a good will, did infact never use violence against him, and tought his acts were justified. (Rechtfertigender Notstand §34 StGB not possible due to the fact that Jakob Metzner being in custody and the vice president being a police officer.)
Same over here.

For anyone not knowing what §34 StGB is about: Its a "Rechtfertigungsgrund" (Read more here: https://limelightgaming.net/forums/thread-19092.html ) which permits commiting crime if you can prevent damage from yourself or someone else regarding life, freedom, and so on.

We call it the "Cannibal Paragraph", as this permits cannibalism, for example when two persons are stranded and starving, and one can only save his own life by eating the other, IF otherwise both would have died.

Returning back to the topic: As said i see why he did it, but commiting a crime is still commiting a crime. And giving you a little inside view: Even tho he was revoked from his former position, he bacially has been promoted to a higher position within the police. However, such behaviour cannot be tolerated: If courts would allow such behaviour, who knows what police officer would do and bring up whatever excuses to threaten or even injure possible criminals. This would have been a door opener for radical justice.

Thanks for answering. Really helped me to understand the background.

Woppsie, sorry i switched the names around - afterall it happened back in 2003.
;p

So basically if you look at the cops in the US, they use the well known strategie of pitting a vehicle to disable it. I have never seen how german police deals with someone who is evading in a vehicle.

(Jan 7, 2018, 08:07 PM)T-Bone Wrote: [ -> ]So basically if you look at the cops in the US, they use the well known strategie of pitting a vehicle to disable it. I have never seen how german police deals with someone who is evading in a vehicle.

The top priority of the german police during a chase is to get the criminal or escapee alive - and to keep everyone involved in that pursuit undamaged.

The german police pursuits the vehicle so long, keeping its distance, until the vehicle crashes or runs out of gas, ramming is an absolute no go, aswell as shooting at those.

Ramming in shooting is only (usually) used if that fleeing person would intentionally kill or injure others OR is a highly wanted criminal. (Murder, Terrorist)

I cannot go into depth any further, as that would be revealing internal police tactics.

Not a question specified on German law, however, what exactly is it that you do within the German police department that you work at? Are you a normal patrol officer or are you specialized in something?

(Jan 8, 2018, 01:57 AM)Wesley Lawrence Wrote: [ -> ]Not a question specified on German law, however, what exactly is it that you do within the German police department that you work at? Are you a normal patrol officer or are you specialized in something?

Hey there!
I originally intended to study, 'jura' to become a judge, however, due to the extremely long and hard process i decided to become a normal officer.

However, since we are not bound to commands, we need to always know if what we're doing is against the law, therefore we learn a lot, even special laws, which you wouldn't think about in the first place.

It's also not just a lecture, either. We're able to pull off 'Subsumtionen', the same paperwork judges do when checking a conflict with the law.

Have you ever encountered the so called "Reichsbürger"? And thanks for answering my last question. Smile

Why whenever there's a special occasion (or whenever needed) the Police does something called "die Rettungsgasse" or In my land known as "Traffic Break" and do you think this kind of procedure in the Authobahn is good or bad and if so, why?

(Jan 8, 2018, 09:31 PM)T-Bone Wrote: [ -> ]Have you ever encountered the so called "Reichsbürger"? And thanks for answering my last question.

You're very welcome. ^.^

Yes of course. For anyone not knowing what a Reichsbürger is:
Citizens that deny the existance of the German Republic, seeing themselves as Citizens of the "Third Reich" (>Prussia), which in their eyes never stopped existing. The new German Republic is a big Company, in their eyes atleast. One of their arguments is that the german republic is still under allied control, therefore still has to exist. This leads to the conclusion that those "Reichsbürger" are conspiracy theorist, however, potentially dangerous ones.

Fun fact about that: They refer as Prussian Citizens. However, this has been the only state in recent german history that has been officialy disbandend (25.02.1947).

About those: Funny fellas. They have no respect for any form of govermental presence, obviously, and react in a violent way once you have to deal with them. They want to decide themselves what laws count for them, what to pay, what to do. Respecting gunlaws is also something they dont really want to do, leading them to collect weapon arsenals.

The presence of firearm or similar weapons is a serious threat to society. The german government does not want their citizens to be armed, since guns will lead to gun related crimes in any case. Aquiring a weapon license in germany is hard and only possible with a valid reason. Being a fanatic is not a reason for example, aswell as wanting to defend your home.

In this case, the "Reichsbürger" mixture is especially dangerous: Denial of laws, moralities and owning of illegal weapons can only lead to an escalation. The best example was the disarmement operation, lead by SEK Officers (Similar to SWAT), which led the Reichsbürger gun down one of this officers.

Apart from that, Reichsbürger are known to all Gov Officials as they are classified as dangerous. I unfortunately cant tell you more about that tho.

(Jan 9, 2018, 06:05 AM)IsThisaNewFLRP? Wrote: [ -> ]Why whenever there's a special occasion (or whenever needed) the Police does something called "die Rettungsgasse" or In my land known as "Traffic Break" and do you think this kind of procedure in the Authobahn is good or bad and if so, why?

A "Rettungsgasse" can happen on any street actually. Most people dont know that youre supposed to create one within closed up areas whenever there is a traffic jam or a gov. vehicle wants to pass.

According to § 38 I StVO every trafic user (pedestrians are also traffic users) has to make way for any gov. vehicle using its horn in combination with the blue light. By creating a traffic break they fullfill their duty.

I personally think the Rettungsgasse is amazing. Not only do the traffic users show responsibilty, but also the understanding that it is more important to let a gov. vehicle on duty pass, the saving of lifes being more important than the quick navigate trough traffic.

The traffic break on the Autobahn only accures once an accident already happened and a jam created itself. It doesnt hurt anyone to move aside to create a path for gov. vehicles. I wouldnt see any argument for not creating that break.

I am wayyy too much into this thread...but probably cause i am quite a police enthusiast.
Which leads me to the question as i am considering myself to join Law Enforcement.

What do you have to able to do to join the police?

(Jan 9, 2018, 03:19 PM)T-Bone Wrote: [ -> ]I am wayyy too much into this thread...but probably cause i am quite a police enthusiast.
Which leads me to the question as i am considering myself to join Law Enforcement.

What do you have to able to do to join the police?

Joining the policeforce should be a question you should carefully answer for yourself by collecting information about the job beforehand. Trough documentaries, talks with real officers, and so on.

In germany there are different requirements for each State:

You need to know that you can enter the bavarian police force in two stages: 2. QE (Middle service level) and 3. QE (Elevated service level.) The 2nd's have blue stars on their shoulders, the 3rd's silver ones. They are higher in rank. Im going to list the minimums for Bavarians 2. QE, and a little from my personal application experience.

> You need to be atleast 17 years old to apply (It normally takes about a year to get you accepted, so once you start you're already 18.)
> Maximum age of 30.
> Realschulabschluss ( College graduation ) ( Altough most people have graduated High School )
> Minimum of 165CM Body hight.
> German Citizenship.
> No conflicts with the law whatsoever at any point. (Having commited a crime before will get you denied.)
> No tatoos at visible spots such as arms, legs.

Once you have fullfilled all requirements, you can apply. For that, you have to meet up with the so called Applicationadviser (Einstellungsberater.). This is a local officers whos only job it is to collect those application, answer questions, and forward them.

After applying, you wait for your test invitation. In order be able to be part of the actual application process, you need to take the 2 day application test. This usually takes 6 months from the date where you've applied.

Once you're ready to go, traveled to one of the application centers (Nürnberg or München) you'll be mixed with a group of about 20 other applicants (I started my tests with 22 other applicants), which you'll go along with the next 2 days. The test consist of following big tasks:

> Language Test (German & English: Grammer, Spelling and similar tests)
1 Dropout

> Logic-Test: Checking your memorizing skills, mathematic skills, and so on.
4 Dropouts
> Sports Test:
> Cooper Test (12 Min of constant running, you need to achieve a distance of atleast 5500m, which is more than it sounds)
> Strength Test (Lifting of weights)
> Bank Jumping
> Swimming Test
> And a test i cant really translate - Situps in a horizontal position
Most people fail the sportstest - I think about 12 dropouts.
> Medical Test: Checking if you're fit, addicted to alcohol or drugs, teeth.
2 Dropouts
> Group Test: Group Discussion.
> Personal Talk: Personal Talk with a tester asking you personal question.
Example: Imagine you're a police officer on duty and happen to stop a vehicle who has crossed a red light. You step to the window when you notice that the driver is a very good friend of yours. What do you do?
Answer: The job of a police officer is a team job: Ask your collegue to take over.

You will get a grade on every part of the test (Expect the medical and sports one.). All of those will be merged to one, the Gesamtnote (Final Grade.). This final grade qualfies you to participate in the final stage of the whole application process.

Places are very limited: There are usually 5000 applicants for 500-800 places. As you can see, i've started out with 22 other people of which only 3 managed to pass the test at all - Only 2 of us became officers (including me) as the grade was good enough.

How they select the grade required to join? Simple - They take the best and fill up the slots with them. This leads the quota grade required vary from year to year.

After that? You finally get invited to join the police of bavaria - and start your schooling at the next september or march.

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Luvbunny

Rizion

Luvbunny

Rizion

Luvbunny

T-Bone

Luvbunny

Wesley Lawrence

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T-Bone

IsThisaNewFLRP?

Luvbunny

Luvbunny

T-Bone

Luvbunny