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America has killed terrorists and more terrorists have come because of it. Definitely agree. Fighting violence with violence creates more violence. If the US were to do nothing about the terrorists, it wouldn't be good either. Possibly worse

Claim: US' involvement in the middle east has lead to more terrorism and breeding of terrorists than we would have seen if US didn't involve themselves in the middle east.

Discuss.


Teacher Enzyme looks forward to interesting discussion and arguments on this topic. Well-argumented posts and use of facts and sources will earn you extra smiley-faces on the blackboard.


Things you can bring up in discussion:

Terrorism, why is it a thing?
The Arab Spring
Oil
Terrorism groups funded by US
US' involvement in political rigging
Weapon trading
Effect of democracy brought to the middle east (healthcare, political corruption, unemployment, human rights, free election, revolutions, constitutional reforms)

I like it. Seeing how middle eastern issues started a little bit before I was born, I'm gonna have to do some research before I reply

(May 23, 2017, 10:04 PM)Lord Octagon Wrote: [ -> ]

(May 23, 2017, 09:47 PM)SourLemon Wrote: [ -> ]That's nice and all, but as we can see across most of the middle east they are not exactly following their own rules. I mean for fuck sake they shoot women for going to school and stone homosexuals

List of Middle-Eastern countries:

Egypt
Iran
Turkey
Iraq
Saudi Arabia 
Yemen
Syria
United Arab Emirates
Israel
Jordan
Lebanon
Oman
Kuwait
Qatar
Armenia
Bahrain

--
All Middle-Eastern nations allow women/girls to go to school. 
As for the comment about homosexuality, let's look at that in more detail:

Yemen: Married men can be sentenced to death by stoning for homosexual intercourse.
Iran: Homosexual intercourse between men can be punished by death
Qatar: Punishable by death, but only applies to Muslims
Saudi Arabia: A married man engaging in sodomy or any non-Muslim who commits sodomy with a Muslim can be stoned to death.

So only 4 out of the 16 Middle-Eastern countries prescribe the death penalty.

Therefore your statement is rather generalised and rather incorrect.

Most killings / stonings are done by the people not by the government so your statement is rather incorrect.

I agree that sometime US actions can contribute to creating more terrorists, but what if the US never intervened in the middle east at all? Would the USSR/Russia have taken the modern day position that the US holds providing troops to to middle eastern countries and promoted communism? Would there still be dictatorships due to rebels not having the weapons provided by the US to fight back? Would Israel even still be a country if the US had not provided tanks, aircraft and weaponry for them to defend their country during the wars in 1967 and 1973? While some US policies i'm sure have actually created terrorists. There would probably be a much more extreme version of the middle east now then there is because the US intervened.

I feel that all it has really done is draw the extremists out of the shadows and into a fight with the US, the extremists have always been there, it is passed down from generation to generation.

I agree mostly with sourLemon. It's not that the US involvement has created these large masses of terrorists, the US has shown others that they do exist and they are fighting. Gonna list some things, then talk about them:

Israel - Israel is one of the more stable nations in the region. As one of the US's major allies, it receives aid and support. This is mainly due to the fact that it puts a stable nation in an unstable nation. Don't get me wrong, there have been terrorists from Israel, but the amount of terrorists coming from there is minuscule compared to Iraq or Syria. if the US wasn't to support Israel, one of the most stable nations and parliamentary democracies would be gone from the region.

Russia - When Russia invaded Afghanistan, the US trained radical islamists to fight against them. Eventually, a lot of these radicals, the Mujahideen, transformed into Al Qaeda, Taliban, and the Muslim brotherhood. This is one of the examples where US involvement directly created future terrorists. What would have happened if the US didn't intervene in the invasion, though? Would Afghanistan be a nation today or would it be a puppet or part of Russia?

US Airstrikes - US airstrikes are often meant to kill terrorists. They often do so. This also creates a problem since someone who isn't radical yet could see their radical family member killed, then they could become a radical, too. This is obviously not always the case, but this could happen.

CIA - The CIA's operations in the middle east probably have created some terrorists, but also resulted in the death of important and prominent militants. The CIA could have killed Zarqawi before he created ISIS, but Powell didn't authorize the operation.

The US has killed terrorists, they have created terrorists, but they mainly brought the existence of the radicals to light.

Holy shit lads.

Look at this. We have actually had an interesting discussion with research done, with critical thinking and with good arguments. This is a nice change of what this subforum usually is.

I'll eat my hat, as I never thought such a thing was possible in the Serious Discussions sub-forum.

No one wants to see ISIS defeated more than Muslims. They've ruined Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, and Nigeria to name a few.



Just looking at this graph shows that ISIS do not represent Islam, and the fact that they kill more Muslims compared to any other religious persons proves this.

Because of US (((interfering))) in the Middle East, the hatred for the West has grown -I'd say- exponentially amongst the civilians. It's only natural to think from their perspective to hate the west, seeing what US is conducting there.

However, thanks to our amazing immigration laws we have imported this culture. We have enabled this ourselves. By "we" I mean our government, and the people who thought immigration from violent third world countries were a good idea. Terrorism only exists within countries that have imported Muslims. Poland for example has ultra-strict immigration laws and is a strict Christian country. They have never had an attack, whilst the rest of Europe had plenty.

If there's a bowl of 100 m&m's, and 10% of them are poisonous, I dare you to eat a handful. Only an idiot would do that, but (((they))) have been influencing us to make it seem like it's a good thing to do.

(May 25, 2017, 04:09 PM)Seriously NOTmaniac Wrote: [ -> ]If there's a bowl of 100 m&m's, and 10% of them are poisonous, I dare you to eat a handful.

It's a win-win?

(May 25, 2017, 04:09 PM)Seriously NOTmaniac Wrote: [ -> ]If there's a bowl of 100 m&m's, and 10% of them are poisonous, I dare you to eat a handful. Only an idiot would do that, but (((they))) have been influencing us to make it seem like it's a good thing to do.

Actually it's 13%.

(May 27, 2017, 09:04 AM)Lods Wrote: [ -> ]

(May 25, 2017, 04:09 PM)Seriously NOTmaniac Wrote: [ -> ]If there's a bowl of 100 m&m's, and 10% of them are poisonous, I dare you to eat a handful. Only an idiot would do that, but (((they))) have been influencing us to make it seem like it's a good thing to do.

Actually it's 13%.

wow, they managed to ask every muslim? no way!!

(May 29, 2017, 04:17 PM)George Wrote: [ -> ]

(May 27, 2017, 09:04 AM)Lods Wrote: [ -> ]

(May 25, 2017, 04:09 PM)Seriously NOTmaniac Wrote: [ -> ]If there's a bowl of 100 m&m's, and 10% of them are poisonous, I dare you to eat a handful. Only an idiot would do that, but (((they))) have been influencing us to make it seem like it's a good thing to do.

Actually it's 13%.

wow, they managed to ask every muslim? no way!!

You're attacking the credibility of a source on your side? That's interesting.

If anything, I'd expect antifa to ask people who they'd expect to be considered MORE peaceful and then extrapolate the statistic up to the whole population. They're a left wing organisation who preach tolerance they don't want Muslims to look bad.

Speaking of tolerance,
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
But why listen to the words of an ancient, old, long-dead man? Right? Oh wait, that's what Islam and many other religions already do.

Anyways, since you're so desperate to see statistics that the opposing side put forward despite that, I'll leave this here. Again.
It's quite interesting, looking at a lot of individuals countries instead of extrapolating just one statistic.



Disclaimer: I dislike Ben Shapiro because I disagree with his views on zionism and abortion, however, I'm not so ignorant that I'm going to refute statistics just because I dislike his political stance. I feel like some people could learn from this.

Also, Ben Shapiro was wrong about one thing in this video. Ben Affleck wasn't a terrible batman.

(May 29, 2017, 05:53 PM)Lods Wrote: [ -> ]

(May 29, 2017, 04:17 PM)George Wrote: [ -> ]

(May 27, 2017, 09:04 AM)Lods Wrote: [ -> ]

(May 25, 2017, 04:09 PM)Seriously NOTmaniac Wrote: [ -> ]If there's a bowl of 100 m&m's, and 10% of them are poisonous, I dare you to eat a handful. Only an idiot would do that, but (((they))) have been influencing us to make it seem like it's a good thing to do.

Actually it's 13%.

wow, they managed to ask every muslim? no way!!

You're attacking the credibility of a source on your side? That's interesting.

If anything, I'd expect antifa to ask people who they'd expect to be considered MORE peaceful and then extrapolate the statistic up to the whole population. They're a left wing organisation who preach tolerance they don't want Muslims to look bad.

Speaking of tolerance,
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
But why listen to the words of an ancient, old, long-dead man? Right? Oh wait, that's what Islam and many other religions already do.

Anyways, since you're so desperate to see statistics that the opposing side put forward despite that, I'll leave this here. Again.
It's quite interesting, looking at a lot of individuals countries instead of extrapolating just one statistic.



Disclaimer: I dislike Ben Shapiro because I disagree with his views on zionism and abortion, however, I'm not so ignorant that I'm going to refute statistics just because I dislike his political stance. I feel like some people could learn from this.

Also, Ben Shapiro was wrong about one thing in this video. Ben Affleck wasn't a terrible batman.

On my side? I have no "side". Unless you're placing me on the side which believes that not all Muslims are terrorists which means you must think that they are?

In which case, mind showing me how many Muslims have been killed by Islamic extremists compared to those of other religions? Weird how terrorist groups would attack people of their own religion, as I thought they all stood together with hatred of the west? Or perhaps look at the Muslims who come out after terrorist attacks to help those in need?

The video you post is bullshit, you can't judge a whole populations beliefs judging on a survey of a few people. And there are no sources to his claims. Just saying "32 percent support Bin Laden" means nothing. Not only that, but do you really have only one video? I swear it's probably the 6th time I've seen it posted on the forums.

Here are some survey results from the source used in the video: https://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/con...ddle-east/

If anyone is part of an organization, you can request the full data on the site.