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Police Action Breakdowns - Catfish - Apr 18, 2020
Hello all!
As many of you may know, I’m an American Law Enforcement Officer. Playing in online communities, I cannot tell you the number of times I have had a video sent to me that consists of some altercation where the police use force, and they always want to know if it’s justified or unjustified in my opinion.
I figure since I’ve heard we have multiple emergency services personnel here (I’ve heard we even got some dispatchers, hell yeah guys) if you come across a news article or video that you’d like to share with me or one of the other LEO’s in this community, you can post it here and we can all have a discussion.
I like the idea as this community is filled with people from all around the world, so learning new perspectives can not only be entertaining, but educational. I’ll post one that I find here after I eat dinner!
RE: Police Action Breakdowns - Bunny_ - Apr 18, 2020
Hey there! German one here. (CID)
Have this ice eating guy:
https://www.autozeitung.de/verfolgungsjagd-mit-eis-in-der-hand-179239.html#
RE: Police Action Breakdowns - Catfish - Apr 18, 2020
(Apr 18, 2020, 10:26 AM)Luvbunny Wrote: Hey there! German one here. (CID)Lmao that was one hell of a video.
Have this ice eating guy:
https://www.autozeitung.de/verfolgungsjagd-mit-eis-in-der-hand-179239.html#
It appears as if the reason for the stop was no license plate (keep in mind I was only able to watch the video, as the article was in German and I’m not fluent in German).
I can understand on some level the need for urgency when you observe a vehicle with no plates. 9/10 if a vehicle has no plates the person has committed, is committing, or about to commit a crime.
However that traffic stop technique was a really interesting one. If the driver proceeded it could’ve easily been a fatal motor vehicle collision, which could open those officers and their department up for a lawsuit/termination.
Then, the golden gem. Officer Snow Cone. Tactically, probably a mistake. That snow cone is in his right hand, and since his service weapon is on his right hip, I imagine his right hand is his shooting hand. If that guy attacks him, his response will be delayed.
Next, I couldn’t help but laugh. The way these officers trash talk this kids bike lmao, it’s fantastic.
Then, Officer Trash Talk instructs the driver to shut off his camera. I’m not sure how German law works, but I know we cannot do that.
All in all, it’s a legal traffic stop in my opinion. Officer Snow Cone and Officer Trash Talk are how I envision all German law enforcement now.
RE: Police Action Breakdowns - Bunny_ - Apr 18, 2020
Glad you enjoyed the techniques shown, hehe.
Quote:It appears as if the reason for the stop was no license plate (keep in mind I was only able to watch the video, as the article was in German and I’m not fluent in German).
I can understand on some level the need for urgency when you observe a vehicle with no plates. 9/10 if a vehicle has no plates the person has committed, is committing, or about to commit a crime.
The danger of potential future crime being committed is actually the secondary reasoning. If you drive without having your vehicle registered you commit the criminal offense of driving without registration, and once that is fullfilled you automatically also commit the criminal offense of tax evasion. There is also the possibility that the bike itself wasnt even allowed to drive on the streets because it has modifications, which might also be an irregularity or another criminal offense.
Quote:However that traffic stop technique was a really interesting one. If the driver proceeded it could’ve easily been a fatal motor vehicle collision, which could open those officers and their department up for a lawsuit/termination.
Disagree. At the speed the police car approched he could've facehugged the street, true, but it would not have been fatal.
Fun Fact: German police officers cannot be terminated easily. Once official for life you cannot be fired anymore, unless you commit a mayor crime such as murder.
Quote:Then, the golden gem. Officer Snow Cone. Tactically, probably a mistake. That snow cone is in his right hand, and since his service weapon is on his right hip, I imagine his right hand is his shooting hand. If that guy attacks him, his response will be delayed.
Altough what you say is true - German officers usually never have to use their gun. It is an expection. Its a bad habit to forget that its there - Which was the case here.
Quote:Then, Officer Trash Talk instructs the driver to shut off his camera. I’m not sure how German law works, but I know we cannot do that.
Actually we do. He didn't insult him, and didnt slander. Besides - Its the way of life here, for me most part. Its a give and take. You do something stupid, you get told that it was stupid - And continue living peacefully together. Its more humane, in my opinion. ;p
RE: Police Action Breakdowns - Catfish - Apr 18, 2020
Im on mobile atm since I do not have access to a computer, so please forgive me as I cannot seem to individually quote particular paragraphs.
1 - That’s actually really interesting. Our legal definition for it would probably be “Operating with Unroadworthy Conditions”. However we would continue to detain them to investigate if a secondary criminal act has been committed. For instance, most residential burglary suspects will take the license plate off of their vehicle so nobody can run the plate and track them.
2- Upon thinking, you’re right. Especially as he had a helmet on the likelihood of the potential motor vehicle accident being fatal would be minimal, but still possible. Blunt force trauma can be delivered, or perhaps another vehicle traveling that isn’t expecting a pedestrian to fly out in front of their vehicle (Although appearing to be one way road, there is T intersection approaching on the right.) While unlikely, just things to look out for.
On a secondary note, why do you guys not initiate traffic stops from behind?
Also, that fun fact is insane. That’s crazy to me, how do you guys investigate lower scale corruption.
3- That does make sense, however it’s said only 1% of officers in the United States ever fire their weapon in the line of duty.
4- I didn’t necessarily say he was trash talking him, just his bike. I like it though, it creates an aspect of understanding and conversation.
RE: Police Action Breakdowns - Bunny_ - Apr 18, 2020
Quote:Also, that fun fact is insane. That’s crazy to me, how do you guys investigate lower scale corruption.
Corruption is basically non existing. This has several reason:
- Officers get failry well, even once in training.
And training means training. You are not on the streets for 2 1/2 or 3 years.
The first rank after training (Polizeimeister / Policemaster) usually pays around 2,500 € (Netto / On the hand) per month.
Theres just no reason to risk that - As being corrupt is one of very few things that could get you fired.
- Laws are very tight. This is the result of a heavy consitution.
We decide between to fields:
> Strafverfolgung (Prosecution)
> Gefahrenabwehr (Immidiate Danger)
Depending on what you do there are different types of laws you have to obey or can use.
For example:
You try to get identification for having committed a crime. (Prosecution -> Lawbook §163 StPO)
The person act up and is on the edge to attack you. (Immidiate Danger -> Lawbook §75, 82 PAG)
Fun Fact: Here you can only cuff a person if they show (beyond doubt) that they are a danger to others or yourself. Cuffing because they are detained is not possible.
- If a police officer is reported, the case is never handled by someone of same group. A case is also not only in the hands of one person. It usually goes trough many (CID -> Leader of Department -> Central Criminal Department (of State)). Chances are minimal that actual wrongdoing is somehow "forgotten".
- You are not allowed to accept any kind of gifts.
- Theres simply no corruption around. Due to very long training and tight structure within groups / department / police officers control each other and passivly kill of any toughts of it.
Fun Fact: Each german state has its own police. Once you are - Lets say - A bavarian officer - You are an officer for entire bavaria. You can use your legal powers not only in the department or city you work, but across all bavaria.
In special ciricumstances even in entire germany.
RE: Police Action Breakdowns - Catfish - Apr 18, 2020
That’s honestly really interesting.
- Pay definitely varies here depending on city, cost of living, and department resources.
- However average salary here is roughly $42,000. That is roughly $3,200 a month, and while I believe a majority of police “corruption” that is reported is actually justifiable, we absolutely have some bad cops here.
- The training aspect is interesting. How do they divide your training? By that I mean do you spend a month on traffic and then another month on building clearing, etc.
-Are those examples criminal offenses for civilians or law enforcement personnel?
- That is kind of the same here. Many believe that we can just handcuff people at any point. Here is our requirements:
- You must have “reasonable suspicion” to detain that suspect.
- You must believe and articulate factors that made you believe the situation is escalating to a point where the suspect may begin to act aggressive.
- (Or) We pull a car over after running the LP and it shows a warrant on the RO. We will likely remove the driver from the vehicle, and then place him in cuffs while we confirm both the drivers identity and the validity of the warrant.
- The Officer will be put on administrative leave. He is to turn in all of his department issued equipment including keycards to the PD, take home cars, etc. He cannot return to work until further notice.
- The department that the officer works for will ask a neighboring department to handle the investigation entirely. Example: (Random County) Sheriffs Office will ask (Random State) State Patrol to handle the investigation.
- After the investigating department concludes their investigation, they will send their results and findings to the department of the officer. (If the District Attorney wants to charge the officer, they will bring the charges to a grand jury, where they will either decline to indict or move forward with the indictment.)
- The Officer’s department will then launch their own investigations with their Internal Affairs Bureau.
- IAB will send their findings to the Administrative Services (Your Captain+).
- If the Officer is found justified, he can then return to active duty. If not, he can be charged criminally or terminated from the police department.
- That is the same here. Since I graduated WSCJTC, I can legally enforce the law anywhere in the State of Washington. It is department policy that regulates us from traveling outside of “jurisdiction”.
RE: Police Action Breakdowns - Bunny_ - Apr 18, 2020
Quote:The training aspect is interesting. How do they divide your training? By that I mean do you spend a month on traffic and then another month on building clearing, etc.
You are stationed for 2,5 Years in the "Bereitschaftspolizei" - In baracks. During your training you will have 4 months of real world practice, in which you ride along real officers as "Officer in Training".
Quote:Are those examples criminal offenses for civilians or law enforcement personnel?
Those examples were laws that gave the police permission to do something - authority law, i suppose.
And oh? Seems like things go otherwise then i imagined they'd be. ^.~
Definitly interesting!
RE: Police Action Breakdowns - Catfish - Apr 19, 2020
(Apr 18, 2020, 11:56 PM)Luvbunny Wrote: authority law, i suppose.Yeah, we call it case law here.
It was very interesting to learn about your law enforcement system!
RE: Police Action Breakdowns - Catfish - Apr 27, 2020
Hello,
I’ve got a new police action for you guys.
https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/watch-san-leandro-pd-release-body-cam-footage-of-deadly-officer-involved-shooting/
Essentially, San Leandro Police are dispatched to a Walmart on a call of a man brandishing a bat who had just committed a shoplift. During the 911 call, the RP (Reporting Party) informs the calltaker that the subject is trying to leave the store (presumably after being contacted by Loss Prevention).
This means that the subject has a weapon in his hand, and is attempting to flee the scene. At this point, we are likely at Robbery. Robbery can be reached when there is a threat of violence to effect the escape, or when reasonable fear of harm is presented.
In this situation, I believe it is reasonable to have fear that the suspect may attempt to assault a civilian.
Officers arrive on scene, and attempt to order the suspect to drop the bat multiple times, the suspect refuses.
A taser is then deployed by the primary officer. The taser is practically ineffective. (Which goes to a point, tasers do not always work.)
The suspect continues to not comply with officers commands.
The primary officer now has his taser in his left hand, and his service pistol in his right. Honestly, something I would never do. When you are in an intense situation, you have tunnel vision. So you may think you are deploying your taser, when in reality, you just shot the guy.
That brings us to what happens next. The suspect takes a step towards the officer, and the officer fired one round, fatally striking the subject.
All in all, I think this was some pretty shitty police work.
In my mind, this is without a doubt an unjustified shooting.
Yes, a bat can be a lethal weapon. Yes, you need to take precaution. Yes, the taser failed. However I can tell you right now, without a doubt, the two officers on scene could have taken that suspect down.
This officer is the reason why good officers get crucified in the media after actual justified shootings, and in my opinion, he should be terminated, and I’m sure the departments internal investigation will show the same findings.
However, I’m up for discussion. If anyone has any thoughts on this, please feel free to share!
RE: Police Action Breakdowns - Montyfatcat - Apr 27, 2020
What would you guys say it's like in terms of "complicit corruption" in your experiences? Like, do you feel that you're unable to make reports about your colleagues when they do shitty stuff and do you feel others are in a similar scenario?
In the UK, rural police stations tend to hold the mantra of "I'll cover your arse if you cover mine", which is a dangerous concept in my opinion.
RE: Police Action Breakdowns - Catfish - Apr 28, 2020
(Apr 27, 2020, 11:28 PM)Montyfatcat Wrote: What would you guys say it's like in terms of "complicit corruption" in your experiences? Like, do you feel that you're unable to make reports about your colleagues when they do shitty stuff and do you feel others are in a similar scenario?I am lucky enough to be a member of a department that is strongly oriented to the community policing aspect of law enforcement.
In the UK, rural police stations tend to hold the mantra of "I'll cover your arse if you cover mine", which is a dangerous concept in my opinion.
I don’t necessarily see complicit corruption, and in the event that I did, our administration would be all over it.
Where a majority of our civilian complaints come from, is use of force. In which nobody intentionally uses excessive use of force, it is more of admin reviewing your actions and determining if their was another viable option.
We use the term “necessary”, necessary means that no reasonably effective alternative to the use of force appeared to exist, and the amount of force used was necessary to effect the lawful purpose intended.
If I see another officer do something that I believe is excessive force or an act of corruption, I am encouraged to report it. We all want the same thing, to make it home at the end of the day. That becomes seemingly more difficult when the public has no respect for you or regard for your safety, which is what happens in cities accused of large scale corruption.
To provide an example, I was involved in an off duty situation where I used a large amount of force to protect the lives of others and myself. My department put me on administrative leave for five weeks as they investigated my incident along with a separate law enforcement agency.