The staff-members have received your unblacklist-request, Haamster.
It will take a while for it to be reviewed.
(Jul 23, 2018, 10:45 PM)Haamster Wrote: [ -> ]Why should you be unblacklisted?: Because I believe the issuing moderator misread the situation.
The situation for which the blacklists were issued I believe were to be on my side of the story, and the issuing moderator himself also said that the players in the scenario had been baiting police and not doing proper RP several times throughout the day. No players on the opposing side were punished however.
The Blacklist itself reads: "Excessive use of lethal force as Police Officer - Shooting at a vehicle because He drove into a compound of a criminal organization"
I distinctly disagree with the assessment itself. I did intentionally shoot at the members of the criminal organisation as they were heavily armed, and the driver of the vehicle was fully knowing of what they were doing as they were entering the compound of several armed men even though they had been flagged down by no less than two police cruisers, yet refusing to comply in anyway.
Check the video below. At what point was I flagged down?
I believe that there are two parts missing to this, the first being that the vehicle was initially part of a pursuit but refused to stop (as can be seen in the video, both police cars have their lights on and the vehicle keeps on moving into the compound with the armed men.)
Need I remind you that lying in the courthouse is not allowed? Exactly where in the video provided at the bottom was my vehicle involved in a pursuit? That showed joining, spawning a car, and driving to the base (stopping at every stop sign in between). At no point was a pursuit initiated. The two officers rolled up after I had already arrived. They never turned on their sirens, attempted to make contact, anything.
In this situation, I, with backup of the other officer who is calling for more backup, decide to open fire at the people in the compound as they are heavily armed and have their weapons pointing towards us.
I don't believe it to be "excessive use of lethal force" to shoot at several armed men who are refusing to comply. Had the vehicle stopped or decided to not go into the compound, the situation could very well have been handled peacefully, but due to the actions of both the driver and men in the compound the situation resulted in a fatal shootout.
You never initiated a stop. Stop lying.
The reason for shooting at the car itself was twofold:
1. As it was entering the property, taking it out would leave their gate open.
Keeping a gate open is not a valid reason to full on RDM the driver of a vehicle with NO prior police contact and NO weapons.
2. The armed men immediately used the car as cover, leaving me no option but to shoot towards where it was. The driver was in no way forced onto the lot and could simply have resolved the traffic violation before entering, but decided to take a bet on that his teammates would take out the cops before he would be taken down.
Again, no stop was ever initiated. I love how you just happen not to use the video provided during the sit that incriminates you. Also, at what point did I bet that my friends would kill you guys? I literally just drove up because I wanted to join their RP. Again, check the video below. You guys just rolled up and a shootout ensued.
I can agree that a better idea would have been to wait for SWAT and then together storm the compound, but as the vehicle was moving in I decided to open fire while the car was passing the gate so as stop it from closing. Whether or not this was the best way is not what I'm arguing, but I see no fault in opening fire at a compound where they are heavily armed and refusing to comply.
The fault wasn't shooting my friends. The fault was shooting a completely UNARMED driver with literally NO prior police contact simply to "keep the gate open." Cops don't just shoot people to make the future more convenient.
I simply see no wrong in what was being done. A difference of opinion in execution is not the same as doing something wrong.
Evidence:
Video supplied by one of the players in the compound which was used as evidence during the in-game sit: https://i.imgur.com/ajRMNUv.mp4
Supplemental evidence from my POV that likely resulted in the BL (had to leave sit early due to IRL reasons):
https://youtu.be/suvkOoeeJnM
I thoroughly enjoyed responding to this UBLR. You didn't include the piece of evidence from the POV of the person you killed (me) that greatly incriminates you. It was provided numerous times in chat during the sit. I'd like to see what
has to say.
(Jul 23, 2018, 11:12 PM)Hungames Wrote: [ -> ] (Jul 23, 2018, 10:45 PM)Haamster Wrote: [ -> ]Why should you be unblacklisted?: Because I believe the issuing moderator misread the situation.
The situation for which the blacklists were issued I believe were to be on my side of the story, and the issuing moderator himself also said that the players in the scenario had been baiting police and not doing proper RP several times throughout the day. No players on the opposing side were punished however.
The Blacklist itself reads: "Excessive use of lethal force as Police Officer - Shooting at a vehicle because He drove into a compound of a criminal organization"
I distinctly disagree with the assessment itself. I did intentionally shoot at the members of the criminal organisation as they were heavily armed, and the driver of the vehicle was fully knowing of what they were doing as they were entering the compound of several armed men even though they had been flagged down by no less than two police cruisers, yet refusing to comply in anyway.
Check the video below. At what point was I flagged down?
I believe that there are two parts missing to this, the first being that the vehicle was initially part of a pursuit but refused to stop (as can be seen in the video, both police cars have their lights on and the vehicle keeps on moving into the compound with the armed men.)
Need I remind you that lying in the courthouse is not allowed? Exactly where in the video provided at the bottom was my vehicle involved in a pursuit? That showed joining, spawning a car, and driving to the base (stopping at every stop sign in between). At no point was a pursuit initiated. The two officers rolled up after I had already arrived. They never turned on their sirens, attempted to make contact, anything.
In this situation, I, with backup of the other officer who is calling for more backup, decide to open fire at the people in the compound as they are heavily armed and have their weapons pointing towards us.
I don't believe it to be "excessive use of lethal force" to shoot at several armed men who are refusing to comply. Had the vehicle stopped or decided to not go into the compound, the situation could very well have been handled peacefully, but due to the actions of both the driver and men in the compound the situation resulted in a fatal shootout.
You never initiated a stop. Stop lying.
The reason for shooting at the car itself was twofold:
1. As it was entering the property, taking it out would leave their gate open.
Keeping a gate open is not a valid reason to full on RDM the driver of a vehicle with NO prior police contact and NO weapons.
2. The armed men immediately used the car as cover, leaving me no option but to shoot towards where it was. The driver was in no way forced onto the lot and could simply have resolved the traffic violation before entering, but decided to take a bet on that his teammates would take out the cops before he would be taken down.
Again, no stop was ever initiated. I love how you just happen not to use the video provided during the sit that incriminates you. Also, at what point did I bet that my friends would kill you guys? I literally just drove up because I wanted to join their RP. Again, check the video below. You guys just rolled up and a shootout ensued.
I can agree that a better idea would have been to wait for SWAT and then together storm the compound, but as the vehicle was moving in I decided to open fire while the car was passing the gate so as stop it from closing. Whether or not this was the best way is not what I'm arguing, but I see no fault in opening fire at a compound where they are heavily armed and refusing to comply.
The fault wasn't shooting my friends. The fault was shooting a completely UNARMED driver with literally NO prior police contact simply to "keep the gate open." Cops don't just shoot people to make the future more convenient.
I simply see no wrong in what was being done. A difference of opinion in execution is not the same as doing something wrong.
Evidence:
Video supplied by one of the players in the compound which was used as evidence during the in-game sit: https://i.imgur.com/ajRMNUv.mp4
Supplemental evidence from my POV that likely resulted in the BL (had to leave sit early due to IRL reasons): https://youtu.be/suvkOoeeJnM
I thoroughly enjoyed responding to this UBLR. You didn't include the piece of evidence from the POV of the person you killed (me) that greatly incriminates you. It was provided numerous times in chat during the sit. I'd like to see what has to say.
Whether or not you "enjoyed" responding to someone else's UBL is something that I quite frankly don't care about.
I fail to see what part I did not bring up.
As you decided to leave we never got any evidence from you, but I'm glad you at least brought the whole video with you. The only evidence that was given were 3 GIFs of around 5 seconds of footage (what I've included in the thread).
In the video you can even hear "haha, ohoh" as you are well aware of what is about to happen. It also shows that your teammates using your car as cover.
Nothing in that video is contradictory to what I've stated.
(Jul 23, 2018, 11:43 PM)Hungames Wrote: [ -> ] (Jul 23, 2018, 11:34 PM)Haamster Wrote: [ -> ]I fail to see what part I did not bring up.
As you decided to leave we never got any evidence from you, but I'm glad you at least brought the whole video with you. The only evidence that was given were 3 GIFs of around 5 seconds of footage (what I've included in the thread).
That's a blatant lie and Roxas can attest to that. I sent the link numerous times in the chat and before leaving.
That is not something I saw, the only thing I saw were the three Gyazo links. But as said, your video is here now so what's the matter?
In the video you can even hear "haha, ohoh" as you are well aware of what is about to happen. It also shows that your teammates using your car as cover.
I don't even think that's my voice. That was most likely the realization of the cops showing up. Why would I predict getting mowed down for literally no reason?
You did not get "mowed down for literally no reason", you were entering a compound, of which there were heavily armed criminals both inside and outside, and you decided to keep going once you saw the police. It was your own choice to enter and as such be in the middle of the crossfire.
Nothing in that video is contradictory to what I've stated.
The whole pursuit and police interaction thing is completely contradictory to the video. At no point did any officers even attempt to initiate a stop or pursuit. The one officer quite nearly cuts me off and crashes into me but continues on his merry way. I even turn and look around several times to see if the dude was going after me for his stupidity.
The reason you didn't see any cop cars behind you was because they were lagging behind and confused as to which car they were chasing.
That you were out of voice range to hear us shout "get out of the car!" was unfortunate, but if your judgement is to not only keep going, but stop your car, see two police cars with their lights on, officers with weapons pointed towards you, and you still keep going, that is completely of your own fault.
Sadly I don't have any evidence to show the police voice radio claiming to be in a pursuit of a white Nissan Skyline, but the fact that two police cars show up behind you at the compound, with their lights on, should have given you a hint. And again, the reason I opened fire was because you intentionally went into a criminal compound, guarded by heavily armed men.
Don't try to tell me you had no idea there would be a firefight.
It was completely your choice to continue going into the compound, you could have left the vehicle and put your hands up and you would certainly not have been shot at, but you decided that your armed up buddies could help you take down the cops.
The only thing I've heard so far has been "but I was in a car!", all the while full well knowing that you were among a group of criminals who were heavily armed and you decided to enter the lot anyway. And seeing as there was a gate, which was closed and then opened specifically for you, it is entirely within reason to assume that you are part of this gang and would gladly take out your weapons and start shooting as soon as you got into the compound.
I fully stand by my actions and I disagree that shooting you was in anyway a mistake or wrongdoing as you were well aware of the situation you put yourself in.
(Jul 24, 2018, 12:17 AM)Haamster Wrote: [ -> ] (Jul 23, 2018, 11:43 PM)Hungames Wrote: [ -> ] (Jul 23, 2018, 11:34 PM)Haamster Wrote: [ -> ]I fail to see what part I did not bring up.
As you decided to leave we never got any evidence from you, but I'm glad you at least brought the whole video with you. The only evidence that was given were 3 GIFs of around 5 seconds of footage (what I've included in the thread).
That's a blatant lie and Roxas can attest to that. I sent the link numerous times in the chat and before leaving.
That is not something I saw, the only thing I saw were the three Gyazo links. But as said, your video is here now so what's the matter?
In the video you can even hear "haha, ohoh" as you are well aware of what is about to happen. It also shows that your teammates using your car as cover.
I don't even think that's my voice. That was most likely the realization of the cops showing up. Why would I predict getting mowed down for literally no reason?
You did not get "mowed down for literally no reason", you were entering a compound, of which there were heavily armed criminals both inside and outside, and you decided to keep going once you saw the police. It was your own choice to enter and as such be in the middle of the crossfire.
Nothing in that video is contradictory to what I've stated.
The whole pursuit and police interaction thing is completely contradictory to the video. At no point did any officers even attempt to initiate a stop or pursuit. The one officer quite nearly cuts me off and crashes into me but continues on his merry way. I even turn and look around several times to see if the dude was going after me for his stupidity.
The reason you didn't see any cop cars behind you was because they were lagging behind and confused as to which car they were chasing.
That you were out of voice range to hear us shout "get out of the car!" was unfortunate, but if your judgement is to not only keep going, but stop your car, see two police cars with their lights on, officers with weapons pointed towards you, and you still keep going, that is completely of your own fault.
Sadly I don't have any evidence to show the police voice radio claiming to be in a pursuit of a white Nissan Skyline, but the fact that two police cars show up behind you at the compound, with their lights on, should have given you a hint. And again, the reason I opened fire was because you intentionally went into a criminal compound, guarded by heavily armed men.
Don't try to tell me you had no idea there would be a firefight.
It was completely your choice to continue going into the compound, you could have left the vehicle and put your hands up and you would certainly not have been shot at, but you decided that your armed up buddies could help you take down the cops.
The only thing I've heard so far has been "but I was in a car!", all the while full well knowing that you were among a group of criminals who were heavily armed and you decided to enter the lot anyway. And seeing as there was a gate, which was closed and then opened specifically for you, it is entirely within reason to assume that you are part of this gang and would gladly take out your weapons and start shooting as soon as you got into the compound.
I fully stand by my actions and I disagree that shooting you was in anyway a mistake or wrongdoing as you were well aware of the situation you put yourself in.
Why were you after him in the first place? Video clearly shows him following traffic laws and you weren't even chasing him.
To put it into context of rules, the relevant rule (I assume) would be 11.7, which reads as follow:
11.7 -
"You cannot kill unarmed people or those who no longer pose a threat (injured, unconscious, handcuffed, etc). The only exception is if there is a dictator who orders an execution or capital punishment for an appropriate crime has been issued. You can shoot at fleeing vehicles only if the drivers are armed and dangerous or if they are clearly a threat to citizen/officers with the way they are driving. "
My side to this story is that I claim that you were armed and dangerous.
Although we can I retrospect see that you were not personally armed, you knowingly entered an area belonging to your friends, who indeed were visibly heavily armed, and by being part of this group you can be assumed to be armed and dangerous as well.
I simply don't see anything rule breakingly wrong with my character's decisions. Could they have been, from an in-game perspective, better? Sure, but this is RP after all. Not all things go to plan. I don't see anything OOC wrong with someone being caught in crossfire in a criminal hideout. An unfortunate casualty at least, and a preemptive take down at most, either way I don't see anything wrong with what went down.
(Jul 24, 2018, 12:33 AM)Haamster Wrote: [ -> ]To put it into context of rules, the relevant rule (I assume) would be 11.7, which reads as follow:
11.7 -
"You cannot kill unarmed people or those who no longer pose a threat (injured, unconscious, handcuffed, etc). The only exception is if there is a dictator who orders an execution or capital punishment for an appropriate crime has been issued. You can shoot at fleeing vehicles only if the drivers are armed and dangerous or if they are clearly a threat to citizen/officers with the way they are driving. "
My side to this story is that I claim that you were armed and dangerous.
Although we can I retrospect see that you were not personally armed, you knowingly entered an area belonging to your friends, who indeed were visibly heavily armed, and by being part of this group you can be assumed to be armed and dangerous as well.
I simply don't see anything rule breakingly wrong with my character's decisions. Could they have been, from an in-game perspective, better? Sure, but this is RP after all. Not all things go to plan. I don't see anything OOC wrong with someone being caught in crossfire in a criminal hideout. An unfortunate casualty at least, and a preemptive take down at most, either way I don't see anything wrong with what went down.
Any reason you refuse to answer my question?
(Jul 24, 2018, 12:33 AM)Haamster Wrote: [ -> ]To put it into context of rules, the relevant rule (I assume) would be 11.7, which reads as follow:
11.7 -
"You cannot kill unarmed people or those who no longer pose a threat (injured, unconscious, handcuffed, etc). The only exception is if there is a dictator who orders an execution or capital punishment for an appropriate crime has been issued. You can shoot at fleeing vehicles only if the drivers are armed and dangerous or if they are clearly a threat to citizen/officers with the way they are driving. "
My side to this story is that I claim that you were armed and dangerous.
Although we can I retrospect see that you were not personally armed, you knowingly entered an area belonging to your friends, who indeed were visibly heavily armed, and by being part of this group you can be assumed to be armed and dangerous as well.
Just because I am in an area with armed people doesn't give you the right to assume that everyone in the area is armed and therefore a threat.
I simply don't see anything rule breakingly wrong with my character's decisions. Could they have been, from an in-game perspective, better? Sure, but this is RP after all. Not all things go to plan. I don't see anything OOC wrong with someone being caught in crossfire in a criminal hideout. An unfortunate casualty at least, and a preemptive take down at most, either way I don't see anything wrong with what went down.
You say crossfire, yet I was the first target of the shots and the first to die. That isn't crossfire. That is targeting.
I reviewed the video and comments on all sides,
What troubles me and validates the blacklist in my eyes is this sentence (the bolded) from Haamster;
Quote:The reason for shooting at the car itself was twofold:
1. As it was entering the property, taking it out would leave their gate open.
2. The armed men immediately used the car as cover, leaving me no option but to shoot towards where it was. The driver was in no way forced onto the lot and could simply have resolved the traffic violation before entering, but decided to take a bet on that his teammates would take out the cops before he would be taken down.
Just because someone is entering a property does not mean they were armed and that they were criminals. He could have been a salesman and you wouldn't have known until after you killed him and they certainly shouldn't be used as a gate stopper.
Also quoting a part of the rule 11.7;
Quote:You can shoot at fleeing vehicles only if the drivers are armed and dangerous or if they are clearly a threat to citizen/officers with the way they are driving.
Hungames was not confirmed to be armed and dangerous and was not a clear threat to citizens and officers with the way he was driving and just entering a property even if has people armed should not be a reason to shoot at the person. It was excessive, and the blacklist was valid.
Basically everything necessary has already been said by , and .
The main concern was your initial answer when I first asked you about why you shot at the vehicle in the first place. You said - quoted from mind protocoll - "I wanted the gate to stay open so I took the risk and shot the vehicle so the driver might eventually get out of it."
Which is - by any means - not a valid reason at all. Under no circumstances.
I'm not saying your action was with a severe malicious intend. Everyone makes mistakes and you had a clear record.
Still a rule has been broken and I had to act.
From my point of view and after reading this discussion aswell as re-watching the video, I came to the conclusion that this blacklist / these blacklists were totally justified.
With Roxas' request I'll be denying this appeal.
The situation was reviewed and the blacklist was found valid.