Ah, FearRP. The common term in Garry's Mod, the beauty of realism and its ability that gives you power over people and a common punishment for not following orders. Anyway let's get to the subject, the server in a nutshell: The trigger happy Sicilian mob has hostages and demands ransom* for their release only for $2,000 each and if failed the mob will happily execute the hostages and which obviously they won't, instead they are waiting for the Police to arrive. The Police has arrived after for who knows how long then pays the ransom and after the release of the hostages, they get a warrant and raid them. Ladies and Gentlemen this simply doesn't work in our world for those who don't know, either pay ransom and leave them alone or send in Special Forces to rescue or ignore and don't negotiate. Otherwise you wanna end up like that one Officer who end up rage quitting after the entire SWAT and most of the Police Force died and retreated, *cough* *cough* Venom, jk <3. Now, let's talk about our world. The United States of America, the United Kingdom and Canada do not pay ransom for hostages and for a good reason. The countries that I'm going to list now that pays ransom but never admit it are: Germany, France, Italy and Spain. Israel on the other hand negotiate with terrorists but admits it. Those countries are funding terrorism and more future hostages since the terrorists are depending on them for their income. Al-Qaeda alone made $125 million since 2008 from such crimes.
Question #1
So since CityRP is suppose to be civilization alike and what we would do in real life, is it allowed to make a law not to pay ransom or negotiate with criminals, can I just send in a Hostage Rescue Team to raid without any negotiations and rescue the hostages. But of course in a situation of a criminal is using the hostage as a human shield has him under gun point and he's in a dead end ally without any enemy surrounding him, FearRP applies. But then it will be a challenge for the Rescue Team and they have to think fast. Unless that one corleone will just kill all the hostages and he won't have any hostages for himself or for his team to get the SWAT under FearRP to save themselves.
I got an answer from Brynn that it's a yes but some other staff member says he disagrees with it because there has to be negotiations. I just want a final answer and I don't want to be in a situation that an admin says yes and the other says no then I get punished since all the staff members has a different opinion which is a problem.
There are pros and cons regarding about this, it will increase the skills and finally tactics will be used by the SWAT, on the other hand hostages will obviously die.
Question #2
And the last question, I've witnessed Jono had a hostage the other day but he was surround by multiple SWAT and Police Officers with ARs and Shotguns, Soviethooves gave him warnings to react but Soviet shot him down and rescued the hostage. Is it allowed? Because I've always wondered before the split of the communities, in the main street there's a hostage, the suspect is using a hostage as a human shield under gunpoint, the SWAT sniper can just take the shot in his head and eventually rescue the hostage, the answer was a no at the time but now it's a yes? I'm confused.
Regarding question #2,
You can shoot the hostage taker if you have a valid plan to do so, not if you are just running at him endangering the hostage etc.
Question 2: You can shoot at a hostage taker if you are confident you can kill or incapacitate them before they are able to harm a hostage and/or if the negotiations have failed.
Question 1 (my take on it): If you don't give the money the hostage always ends up dead/injured and there is little RP to be seen, there's just a rush and a massive shootout. I think negotiations should always be made to try find a peaceful resolution UNLESS the culprits are known to have killed a lot of people before. E.g if someone who just shot 5 cops takes a hostage, you can safely ignore negotiation in my opinion. As I said, trying to fulfill their demands ends with better RP but I don't think you are necessarily forced to pay $2000 to hostage takers before conducting the rescue operation. Also /hostagemoney exists, pay that, then retrieve it if the operation is successful.
Question #2 -
I was always told if there is a clean shot (that will be a one shot kill) from a sniper they can take it. So long as the hostage isn't in danger from them taking the shot I've always been told they can take the shot and then the rest of the SWAT move in etc.
if a hostage taker had a gun to the person head i would say no, as IRL the SWAT would not move in when a hostage situation is in play, as the hostage taker has more change of killing the hostage before he is shot, as we know this happened 3 weeks ago on the server,
argued SWAT had a shot so they took it, now tell me now if that was someone you know family ect. would you still have took the shot, the situation is focused on the hostaged taker but its focused on the hostage they would not risk his life when their are other options, I was their ingame when this happened. If the SWAT had a sniper on the roof of a building then its a different situation as the sniper cannot be seen so can take the shot .
but even then the hostage live is still in danger if the shot is taken, one of the SWAT member said they had the shot so they took it but the hostage taker was surrounded and "Soviet" said that the hostage taker was under fear rp, but even if he was surrounded he would make sure that if he died so did the hostage as he would bring him closer in,
i researched this out about the SWAT and how they deal with situations, i found this https://ntoa.org/massemail/swatstandards.pdf
6.1 The SWAT team shall develop an operational plan in a consistent format for preplanning
purposes. The planning processes shall include target scouting;
development of detailed written Operations Orders, detailed Operations Order
briefings, operation rehearsals and pre-mission inspections.
6.2 Operational planning concepts shall include procedures for responding to
ongoing or evolving incidents, including the development of SOPs relating to
rapid responses to emergent situations.
6.3 All SWAT team members shall be trained and shall demonstrate proficiency in
operational planning concepts.
When the hostage Situation went down ingame "Soviet jumped in his SWAT van and moved in" their was no planning but SWAT running in , but the hostage taker could have shot the hostage at any point of the SWAT moving in
I did not see any planning of the situation SWAT Talking about how to move in or even ask what his demands where,
even though he had 5 ar-15 pointed at him the hostage taker still had a life in his hands so when i heard "soviet" say you was under fear rp, in this situation its a bit like bomb rp everyone does not move in until a certificated bomb defusal squad goes in which would be in the situation the "negotiator"
i ask you "Soviet" did you try to negotiate?
when you used the words "you was under fear rp and you broke it" the chat was mad
i was right their when the situation went down, fear rp could not possibly apply when a life and guns are in play , the hostage taker could of shot the hostage at any time, the way the SWAT went about it was " everyone was to trigger happy"
here again is how SWAT should deal with a hostage situation: https://ntoa.org/pdf/swatstandards.pdf
5.1 Appropriately trained and designated personnel should develop an operational
plan in a consistent format for pre‐planning purposes. The planning processes
should include target scouting; development of detailed written operations
orders, detailed operations order briefings, operation rehearsals and pre‐mission
inspections. Final approval for all operational planning documents should rest on
the team commander or a designee.
5.2 All SWAT team members should be trained in and capable of demonstrating
proficiency in operational planning concepts.
this shows that the SWAT has planned for the situation which may lie ahead, not once did the SWAT have a clean shot at the hostage taker,
This is the layout of The SWAT
Active shooter: An armed suspect who is actively shooting at and/or threatening to cause
great bodily harm to other civilians and/or police and continues to do so
while having unrestricted access to additional victims.
Armored rescue: vehicle A vehicle that is or has been hardened to protect the occupants from
small arms fire and fragmentation. Also known as an “ARV”.
Arrest team A team of operators established to contact, control and detain suspect(s).
Primary function is to safely and effectively receive anyone exiting a
location. May also serve as exigent entry team. Also known as
“Arrest/React Team”
Barricaded subject An isolated subject, who comes into armed conflict with law enforcement,
poses a danger to themselves or others, and is confined to a relatively
fixed position. The subject may create circumstances that warrant law
enforcement intervention.
Breach and hold A tactical technique by operators to maintain and hold their positions in
close proximity of the entry point of a target location after breaching that
entry point. Also known as “breach and delay”
Now please tell me Did any rp go into your hostage situation as you was SWAT commander or was you trigger happy
This is not just aimed at soviet and he was the commander of your team not sure who was in your team
(Aug 15, 2016, 09:46 PM)X gallagher98 X Wrote: [ -> ]if a hostage taker had a gun to the person head i would say no, as IRL the SWAT would not move in when a hostage situation is in play, as the hostage taker has more change of killing the hostage before he is shot, as we know this happened 3 weeks ago on the server, argued SWAT had a shot so they took it, now tell me now if that was someone you know family ect. would you still have took the shot, the situation is focused on the hostaged taker but its focused on the hostage they would not risk his life when their are other options, I was their ingame when this happened. If the SWAT had a sniper on the roof of a building then its a different situation as the sniper cannot be seen so can take the shot .
but even then the hostage live is still in danger if the shot is taken, one of the SWAT member said they had the shot so they took it but the hostage taker was surrounded and "Soviet" said that the hostage taker was under fear rp, but even if he was surrounded he would make sure that if he died so did the hostage as he would bring him closer in,
i researched this out about the SWAT and how they deal with situations, i found this https://ntoa.org/massemail/swatstandards.pdf
6.1 The SWAT team shall develop an operational plan in a consistent format for preplanning
purposes. The planning processes shall include target scouting;
development of detailed written Operations Orders, detailed Operations Order
briefings, operation rehearsals and pre-mission inspections.
6.2 Operational planning concepts shall include procedures for responding to
ongoing or evolving incidents, including the development of SOPs relating to
rapid responses to emergent situations.
6.3 All SWAT team members shall be trained and shall demonstrate proficiency in
operational planning concepts.
When the hostage Situation went down ingame "Soviet jumped in his SWAT van and moved in" their was no planning but SWAT running in , but the hostage taker could have shot the hostage at any point of the SWAT moving in
I did not see any planning of the situation SWAT Talking about how to move in or even ask what his demands where,
even though he had 5 ar-15 pointed at him the hostage taker still had a life in his hands so when i heard "soviet" say you was under fear rp, in this situation its a bit like bomb rp everyone does not move in until a certificated bomb defusal squad goes in which would be in the situation the "negotiator"
i ask you "Soviet" did you try to negotiate?
when you used the words "you was under fear rp and you broke it" the chat was mad
i was right their when the situation went down, fear rp could not possibly apply when a life and guns are in play , the hostage taker could of shot the hostage at any time, the way the SWAT went about it was " everyone was to trigger happy"
here again is how SWAT should deal with a hostage situation: https://ntoa.org/pdf/swatstandards.pdf
5.1 Appropriately trained and designated personnel should develop an operational
plan in a consistent format for pre‐planning purposes. The planning processes
should include target scouting; development of detailed written operations
orders, detailed operations order briefings, operation rehearsals and pre‐mission
inspections. Final approval for all operational planning documents should rest on
the team commander or a designee.
5.2 All SWAT team members should be trained in and capable of demonstrating
proficiency in operational planning concepts.
this shows that the SWAT has planned for the situation which may lie ahead, not once did the SWAT have a clean shot at the hostage taker,
This is the layout of The SWAT
Active shooter: An armed suspect who is actively shooting at and/or threatening to cause
great bodily harm to other civilians and/or police and continues to do so
while having unrestricted access to additional victims.
Armored rescue: vehicle A vehicle that is or has been hardened to protect the occupants from
small arms fire and fragmentation. Also known as an “ARV”.
Arrest team A team of operators established to contact, control and detain suspect(s).
Primary function is to safely and effectively receive anyone exiting a
location. May also serve as exigent entry team. Also known as
“Arrest/React Team”
Barricaded subject An isolated subject, who comes into armed conflict with law enforcement,
poses a danger to themselves or others, and is confined to a relatively
fixed position. The subject may create circumstances that warrant law
enforcement intervention.
Breach and hold A tactical technique by operators to maintain and hold their positions in
close proximity of the entry point of a target location after breaching that
entry point. Also known as “breach and delay”
Now please tell me Did any rp go into your hostage situation as you was SWAT commander or was you trigger happy
This is not just aimed at soviet and he was the commander of your team not sure who was in your team
I really don't see the need to negotiate or plan if we surround the shooter from all sides with automatic weapons. What were we supposed to do, just sit there and chat? Don't really see the need to as all of our units were able to injure the suspect before he was able to pull the trigger. Yes, planning is an extreme part of SWAT, but if he's down the road in the open, I'm gonna grab my SWAT Van and the team and surround him before he knows what's going on.
Now, if the suspect was barricaded, and wasn't in the open like he was in the situation you use, yes a plan would be needed. You have to realize that when you are surrounded by SWAT and you have 5 AR-15's all trained on your head, you could get shot without even knowing the direction, thus why you should be scared that we are able to fire a shot before you can even notice.
Q1: You can. Negotiations are IC and may be voided if the superior wishes to ignore it.
Q2: You can only fire upon the hostage taker if it is extremely clear that you have a kill shot. I consider being surrounded by multiple firearms, a game over for any suspect, especially on how close we were.